NYTimes: In South Korea, Questions About Cram Schools, Success and Happiness

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

Great point. There’s no single “American” approach to educational priorities.

Different parents and communities choose to do things differently, in part influenced by cultural background, but in my experience, influenced even more by their sense of economic security, financial background, and class/wealth.

“We” in America includes everyone from low income/first-gen parents focused primarily on getting the kids off to college, to working class/middle class families hoping their kids will use their education to attain more financial security than they grew up with, to UMC families hoping their kids’ education will help them retain the security they have, to UHNW families with accessible generational wealth … and everything in between.

So of course these families will be approaching education differently, from pre-school to college and beyond.

And that’s ok! There’s no one way to raise happy, healthy, successful kids. Life is better when we choose what works for our family while giving everyone else the grace and space to do the same.

I agree it’s a personal choice. What I don’t really buy is the idea that success on paper or a sense of superiority automatically means someone has more innate talent, or that excellence comes effortlessly. Most of the time, there’s a real mental and physical cost behind it that people don’t talk about. Meanwhile, use that to argue about who's more worthy for the reward (in DCUM, it'd be college) is not convincing.

Success comes from effort, talent, and a bit of luck—but it shouldn’t mean sacrificing your mental or physical health or chasing it just for bragging points.

Absolutely. These Korean parents don't think their kid are doing great in school because of innate talent. They follow the confucius teachings of working hard. There's a saying in Korean that people say to students roughly translates to: "study hard".

I also agree that people shouldn't chase success at the expense of their mental well being. I'm a perfect example. I could've excelled in my career and be a high level manager by now (I was always asked if I wanted the manager track, and I have always received high ratings on my reviews), but I chose to stay in my individual contributor level while earning a decent amount because I didn't want the stress that came with a higher position. I'm comfortable with where I'm at.

Koreans have the benefit of an extra generation in America. But if you are a recent immigrant, the anxiety is far greater.

The gradient is more gradual here, if you miss the top, you still do pretty well and you will still have financial stability. Some people come from places where lacking that top credential means a fairly significant drop-off in financial stability.

Also even if you go to harvard or MIT, you are still mostly talking about UMC. The difference in lifestyle exists but it is gradual. So the fear isn't there and the relative jackpot isn't there.

[Anonymous]

The thing I keep thinking over and over again is that I was foolish to have trusted my pretty nice public schools to teach math K-5. They did a bad job though I don't blame teachers. Our teachers did what they were told as best they could. By which I mean showing all those model diagrams, encouraging math exploration with manipulatives, doing small group differentiated instruction with all levels in one class, experimenting with math video games.

Drill and kill would have worked better. I should have worked with my kids on IXL. I don't think they would have liked Beast Academy or RSM. I personally don't like Kumon. Mine did Mathnasium in middle school and high school. And it was okay but expensive. And my older lacks math intuition. Just like me.

So Asian/Asian-American parents make their kids do this stuff. I just wish I had. You don't need to go all the way to cram school to foster more comfort with elementary math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You might think Korea and Japan would look inward and wonder why they don't really create any start-ups, their populations are collapsing, etc.

It sounds like a terrible life to go to school essentially 70 hours per week until 21, then become an office drone for the rest of your life.

I guess that's why many of the wealthy people send their kids to private schools in the US or Australia or other countries.

I hope Korea and Japan don’t look inward. Someone has to create worker drones so I can live my fat executive lifestyle. If they stop, who’s going to do all the work??? Not me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The thing I keep thinking over and over again is that I was foolish to have trusted my pretty nice public schools to teach math K-5. They did a bad job though I don't blame teachers. Our teachers did what they were told as best they could. By which I mean showing all those model diagrams, encouraging math exploration with manipulatives, doing small group differentiated instruction with all levels in one class, experimenting with math video games.

Drill and kill would have worked better. I should have worked with my kids on IXL. I don't think they would have liked Beast Academy or RSM. I personally don't like Kumon. Mine did Mathnasium in middle school and high school. And it was okay but expensive. And my older lacks math intuition. Just like me.

So Asian/Asian-American parents make their kids do this stuff. I just wish I had. You don't need to go all the way to cram school to foster more comfort with elementary math.

Our family has also been affected by subpar public education—even though we’re in a so-called “10-rated” school district. We only really realized it during COVID, when remote learning started. We switched to private school right away, and luckily our kids adapted quickly.

Ironically, I think that’s because they had about six years of very low academic pressure in elementary school, so they weren’t burned out at all. Quite the opposite—they were genuinely fascinated by the private school curriculum, which was more challenging and far more engaging for them.

Our kids have done well without ever attending a cram school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m genuinely curious—does getting ahead really help?

What does getting ahead really mean?

In Korea where a meritocracy has existed since before 1000 AD, it means a lot more than it does in America. As recently as the Joseon dynasty, a test decided who got to enter the nobility. When my great-grandfather's older brother failed the test, the entire family was shamed and the lineage jeopardized.

Everyone who wants to turn the Ivy League into a pure meritocracy be forewarned: the effects are miserable.

I feel lucky enough to live in a country where my college degree doesn't determine much beyond my first job. I have a great college degree, but I'm unbothered about my kids getting an equally good one. America has so many paths to success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

Right but as a Korean neighbor of mine once said: we are exporting our hell (cram school)

Hard to fight culture

[Anonymous]

The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Korea is going to implode. They already have the lowest birth rate in the world. It's a fantastic place to visit and live if you don't have kids. But, the "cram" school in the US and the US education in general is a lot easier than in Korea. That's one of the reasons why people want to send their kids here.

Yes, they are importing some of their way of life here, but in some ways, it's no different than parents who push their kids to excel in sports in hopes for an athletic scholarship such that the kids are stressed (physically, too) and get little sleep. Same coin, different sides.

-Korean American

Right but as a Korean neighbor of mine once said: we are exporting our hell (cram school)

Hard to fight culture

I think the Bay Area has it the worst—a high concentration of the same mindset, coming from different groups and backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m genuinely curious—does getting ahead really help?

What does getting ahead really mean?

In Korea where a meritocracy has existed since before 1000 AD, it means a lot more than it does in America. As recently as the Joseon dynasty, a test decided who got to enter the nobility. When my great-grandfather's older brother failed the test, the entire family was shamed and the lineage jeopardized.

Everyone who wants to turn the Ivy League into a pure meritocracy be forewarned: the effects are miserable.

I feel lucky enough to live in a country where my college degree doesn't determine much beyond my first job. I have a great college degree, but I'm unbothered about my kids getting an equally good one. America has so many paths to success.

The misery doesn't come from the meritocratic nature, but from the necessity of making it to a top university. Going to the Ivy league isn't necessary for an upper class lifestyle. SKY+KAIST+POSTECH is, due to the lack of job availability in Korea. That's where the anxiety and willingness to sacrifice your kids' education comes from.

[Anonymous]

Even Squid Game shows this Korean culture: one of the series characters went to "SNU" (Seoul National University) and instantly gained credibility as being smart. A Korean friend introduced his wife to me and said "this is XX, she got her Ph.D. from Columbia." And in my neck of the wood the several Korean folks I know have children attending Princeton, UChicago, and Yale. I don't see the same culture with Chinese and Indian immigrant friends/colleagues. I mean they do but at a significantly lower clip than Korean families.

[Anonymous]

In my mind - maybe it's because I'm from the international relations sphere in DC - I see this trend as something that has been tremendously powerful in developing into modern economic powerhouses in several countries. It's amazing that we could see Japan dig out of war devastation in a couple generations, China climb out of middling/struggling country status in 40 years, South Korea move from middle income to high income in a generation. But the question of sustainability is really a big deal.

Workforces can break if they are worked too hard. People need family life. You can't have success only happen for the people at the peak of the mountain.

In the U.S. we have a social compact around economic success relatively commensurate with your willingness to work, and some ability to set boundaries and get out what you're willing to put in. It has some major failures, but at least the premise isn't entirely wrong.

These cultures where you have to offer total commitment to school, then to work, have to find a way to dial it back and offer 'some commitment, at least better than subsistence' if they're going to allow people to thrive outside of work.

I think big picture that's what the modern world really needs to be humane - the ability to do better for oneself without having to gamble or make herculean efforts - just keep working in good faith and things will turn out for you, in keeping with how hard you try.

I think we walk around with this as something like unspoken natural law, sometimes honored in the breach, but what we see as one kind of justice, and I think it would be better if we said some of this out loud and tried to make it possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing I keep thinking over and over again is that I was foolish to have trusted my pretty nice public schools to teach math K-5. They did a bad job though I don't blame teachers. Our teachers did what they were told as best they could. By which I mean showing all those model diagrams, encouraging math exploration with manipulatives, doing small group differentiated instruction with all levels in one class, experimenting with math video games.

Drill and kill would have worked better. I should have worked with my kids on IXL. I don't think they would have liked Beast Academy or RSM. I personally don't like Kumon. Mine did Mathnasium in middle school and high school. And it was okay but expensive. And my older lacks math intuition. Just like me.

So Asian/Asian-American parents make their kids do this stuff. I just wish I had. You don't need to go all the way to cram school to foster more comfort with elementary math.

Our family has also been affected by subpar public education—even though we’re in a so-called “10-rated” school district. We only really realized it during COVID, when remote learning started. We switched to private school right away, and luckily our kids adapted quickly.

Ironically, I think that’s because they had about six years of very low academic pressure in elementary school, so they weren’t burned out at all. Quite the opposite—they were genuinely fascinated by the private school curriculum, which was more challenging and far more engaging for them.

Our kids have done well without ever attending a cram school.

PP. The private schools in my area aren't sufficiently better to warrant college-level tuitions. I do envy some aspects of the traditional Catholic school system in our town but we are not Catholic and are ideologically out of step with the sponsoring parish.

I do think we have done a good job of providing experiential learning and supporting kids' interests (America does do a good job at this). But rigor on the basics has been lacking.

Edtech is another big issue.

Amanda Ripley's older (2014) book "The Smartest Kids in the World" discusses that Americans overvalue the role of technology and computing in schools. I agree with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Ripley

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m genuinely curious—does getting ahead really help?

What does getting ahead really mean?

It means you never walk into any class needing to rely on the classroom instruction. You could get an A on the final day one. More importantly, you never trust the US public school system to teach math or science. You learn it outside the system so that at higher levels you don’t struggle with gaps.

In the Bay Area, it is not uncommon for kids to start taking DE courses in 8th grade and have their GE, and DE major prerequisite courses complete with straight As along with the APs in high school to get the most rigorous check box by the end of junior year.

It also means that kids in public are competing with kids who have a second set of credentials. As it’s low cost to do this, they don’t trigger the pay to privilege box that other programs signal.

The problem with those Bay Area cram schools is that they’re not really teaching the material. They’re helping kids get high test scores by drilling them on old exams they’ve gotten from different schools. That’s basically another version of pay-to-play.

Are Bay Area cram schools really that much worse than DMV area cram schools?

There are literally dozens of cheap DMV area cram schools that leverage free things like Khan and AoPS with great results. I don't think those are what you would call pay to play.

Which cram schools do you mean? I’ve seen Kumon, Russian Math, AoPS, and Mathnasium, but I’m curious and apparently oblivious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my mind - maybe it's because I'm from the international relations sphere in DC - I see this trend as something that has been tremendously powerful in developing into modern economic powerhouses in several countries. It's amazing that we could see Japan dig out of war devastation in a couple generations, China climb out of middling/struggling country status in 40 years, South Korea move from middle income to high income in a generation. But the question of sustainability is really a big deal.

Workforces can break if they are worked too hard. People need family life. You can't have success only happen for the people at the peak of the mountain.

In the U.S. we have a social compact around economic success relatively commensurate with your willingness to work, and some ability to set boundaries and get out what you're willing to put in. It has some major failures, but at least the premise isn't entirely wrong.

These cultures where you have to offer total commitment to school, then to work, have to find a way to dial it back and offer 'some commitment, at least better than subsistence' if they're going to allow people to thrive outside of work.

I think big picture that's what the modern world really needs to be humane - the ability to do better for oneself without having to gamble or make herculean efforts - just keep working in good faith and things will turn out for you, in keeping with how hard you try.

I think we walk around with this as something like unspoken natural law, sometimes honored in the breach, but what we see as one kind of justice, and I think it would be better if we said some of this out loud and tried to make it possible.

Thoughtful take. I tend to agree.

I think the bold part above is the American ethos - at least, aspirationally.

And it tends to be true for many, many Americans, even now. But there are just too many for whom it's out of reach, and still others for whom it FEELS like it's out of reach, even if that's not quite true.

For me, this is a natural side effect of capitalism and free markets. Overall, a far better system than the alternatives. But there are enough people left out that we need governmental safety nets (including social support and more on-ramps). Otherwise too many people end out outside the system looking in (or feel that way), and are looking for alternatives that undermine or attempt to replace democracy.

Bluntly, inadequate governmental safety net = inseure or unsustainable democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason for that: it’s a country that has very little resources, a large population, not enough good jobs for everyone.

US is different.

This is true, and a lot of the recent immigrants don't realize this.

In Korea, your life is set if you go to one of the SKY univs and then get a job at one of the chaebols. Here in the US, we have so many paths to financial success.

There are people in the US who either didn't go to college or went to a T50 or below and can get jobs at a FAANG. That would be unheard of in Korea.