Poverty level is $140,000 for a family. Really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a needed wake up call for people who think they can retire comfortably on 3 - 5 M.

What is this non sequitur post? In the first place you are flat out wrong.

[Anonymous]

140K can be rich in DC depending on your situation.

For example my kid lives in a rent controlled apt in Adam Morgan.

The women who is on site manager has two kids and is married. She does the apt showings, makes sure work is done by porter and staff. But the building is old and runs like clockwork so not really a full time job. Just has to be around for stuff like when an apt is is free to be shown and check work is actually done.

She does it for free and in return she gets a free two bedroom apartment, utilities and parking included. Kids school is up the block she walks them to and from school.

If her husband made 140K she be in my opinion rich.

A dual income couple both in the office with childcare and a mortgage at 140K would be poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

It can be done. We never felt poor.

Could you please post a Zillow link of a SFH in Bethesda that a family of 4 with a 140k income could afford?

I would honestly love to see that and would jump on it in a heartbeat.

Bethesda has not been affordable since 1998 for middle class. In 1999-2001 Mortgages rates were sky high and by time started falling in late 2001 the housing buble started.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

It can be done. We never felt poor.

but that cant be done today as easy. Like me telling my kids when I was married my wife moved into my one bedroom coop I bought in a foreclosure sale in 1991 that only cost me after tax break $550 a month so we could save up for a downpayment very quickly. I then got starter home for cheap and them sold double and bought my big house. Wow they say gramps really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:140K can be rich in DC depending on your situation.

For example my kid lives in a rent controlled apt in Adam Morgan.

The women who is on site manager has two kids and is married. She does the apt showings, makes sure work is done by porter and staff. But the building is old and runs like clockwork so not really a full time job. Just has to be around for stuff like when an apt is is free to be shown and check work is actually done.

She does it for free and in return she gets a free two bedroom apartment, utilities and parking included. Kids school is up the block she walks them to and from school.

If her husband made 140K she be in my opinion rich.

A dual income couple both in the office with childcare and a mortgage at 140K would be poor.

That is exactly his point. In his article, he says the poverty line for a dual-income couple with 2 kids who need childcare and a mortgage. This is pasted from his article:

"Using conservative, national-average data:

Childcare: $32,773
Housing: $23,267
Food: $14,717
Transportation: $14,828
Healthcare: $10,567
Other essentials: $21,857
Required net income: $118,009

Add federal, state, and FICA taxes of roughly $18,500, and you arrive at a required gross income of $136,500."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a needed wake up call for people who think they can retire comfortably on 3 - 5 M.

You think retirees pulling $120K - $200K in income from their retirement accounts are going to be in poverty? Retirees who mostly also have social security to fund essentials and medicare to fund healthcare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a needed wake up call for people who think they can retire comfortably on 3 - 5 M.

You think retirees pulling $120K - $200K in income from their retirement accounts are going to be in poverty? Retirees who mostly also have social security to fund essentials and medicare to fund healthcare?

No, because they no longer have dependent children and shouldn't have a mortgage. His article about the poverty line applies to a family of 4 with two dependent children and two working parents, not 2 retirees with no dependent children.

[Anonymous]

What? We (fam of 4) live outside of DC and our HHI is 160. We have no debt other than mortgage, own two Subarus, never feel stretched too thin to buy any expensive groceries or toys or kitchen gadgets we might want or need, and travel to Europe every summer. I highly doubt that we are just barely over the poverty line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What? We (fam of 4) live outside of DC and our HHI is 160. We have no debt other than mortgage, own two Subarus, never feel stretched too thin to buy any expensive groceries or toys or kitchen gadgets we might want or need, and travel to Europe every summer. I highly doubt that we are just barely over the poverty line.

How'd you get to that point? Did you make and save money for cars and a home down payment before kids? Do you still need full-time child care? I thought his numbers for childcare, housing, food, transportation, healthcare, and other essentials were spot on for our family of 4. We spend more than $140,000 to live what most people would describe as a prudent lifestyle, because, in addition to the costs he listed in his article, we also travel, save for college, save for retirement, and let our kids participate in local activities. We live what most would consider a prudent middle-class lifestyle on a budget of $220k: we drive cars like Subarus, home is not fancy, kids go to public school, we mainly hit Costco for food and essentials, and we take one trip a year, usually domestic. Any less than that, we'd have to give up saving for college or retirement, or taking one trip a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the Midwest and that number sounds crazy high for the poverty line. We live in a wealthy town. We have neighbors with SAHPs who make about that much. They’re not remotely close to the poverty line with their big families, big houses in good school districts.

You have to make a lot more with two working parents to have the same quality of life. In metro areas, you probably need another $30-45k if you both work with two kids. In rural areas, it is probably more like needing another $20-30k.

At lower income levels, you need even more, since the income of the other parent would also need to offset the loss of government programs.

This why they have one working parent instead of two.

We’re dual income with each of us making more than them. Yet they live next door and have nicer cars. No family money. I’d hate to see their retirement accounts though.

The point is that $140k isn’t poverty level throughout the country. Only in HCOL spots and only for certain stages in life.

You’re super dumb. The POINT is that a family with ONE earner making 140k is better off than a family with TWO earners who EACH make 70k.

Two earners making more than 140k is utterly irrelevant to this particular thread. Your neighbor’s choice of vehicle is irrelevant. FFS use the brain God gave you before you comment again.

You’re angry because you don’t communicate well in writing and people don’t understand what you’re trying to convey. Your message was garbled and unclear. But thanks for clarifying, I guess?

Incorrect. I’m not the person to whom you initially responded. Their point was abundantly clear to anyone with two+ brain cells to rub together.

Schools don't teach critical thinking anymore, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

We (fam of 4) live outside of DC and our HHI is 160.

Live outside of DC as in the suburbs, or outside the DC area? When did you buy your house? Because this is a key difference - even the lower priced DC suburbs are prohibitively expensive, unless you bought a lower priced house or townhouse when rates were very low and are paying $2000 a month for housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you read the article, he's gotten criticism for starting with a poverty measure and modifying it into the minimum income to be middle class. That makes more sense as an HHI below $140k is going to seriously impact budgeting expenses in the DC area, but it's pretty ludicrous to imply that you'll struggle to meet basic needs like food or clothing at this level. It does make sense as a threshold for getting some type of housing assistance as becoming a homeowner at this income in DC is going to be close to impossible.

If you're a family with two working parents and two small kids, $140k is going to make things tight. No, still not poverty level, but certainly tight.

If you're making $140k in a household with a SAHP, that's a completely different situation.

These calculations, and eligibility for government assistance programs, tremendously discourage having two working parents.

+1

With a SAHP your daycare costs are zero. That is saving $12-15K+/year for each kid you have most likely

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you read the article, he's gotten criticism for starting with a poverty measure and modifying it into the minimum income to be middle class. That makes more sense as an HHI below $140k is going to seriously impact budgeting expenses in the DC area, but it's pretty ludicrous to imply that you'll struggle to meet basic needs like food or clothing at this level. It does make sense as a threshold for getting some type of housing assistance as becoming a homeowner at this income in DC is going to be close to impossible.

If you're a family with two working parents and two small kids, $140k is going to make things tight. No, still not poverty level, but certainly tight.

If you're making $140k in a household with a SAHP, that's a completely different situation.

These calculations, and eligibility for government assistance programs, tremendously discourage having two working parents.

+1

With a SAHP your daycare costs are zero. That is saving $12-15K+/year for each kid you have most likely

Infant daycare is 500 per week minimum. 2 years. Then MAYBE goes down to 350-400/week but the prices keep rising so you end up paying the same tuition you were paying for an infant for a 4 year old. Its fu3k5ry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:140K can be rich in DC depending on your situation.

For example my kid lives in a rent controlled apt in Adam Morgan.

The women who is on site manager has two kids and is married. She does the apt showings, makes sure work is done by porter and staff. But the building is old and runs like clockwork so not really a full time job. Just has to be around for stuff like when an apt is is free to be shown and check work is actually done.

She does it for free and in return she gets a free two bedroom apartment, utilities and parking included. Kids school is up the block she walks them to and from school.

If her husband made 140K she be in my opinion rich.

A dual income couple both in the office with childcare and a mortgage at 140K would be poor.

That is exactly his point. In his article, he says the poverty line for a dual-income couple with 2 kids who need childcare and a mortgage. This is pasted from his article:

"Using conservative, national-average data:

Childcare: $32,773
Housing: $23,267
Food: $14,717
Transportation: $14,828
Healthcare: $10,567
Other essentials: $21,857
Required net income: $118,009

Add federal, state, and FICA taxes of roughly $18,500, and you arrive at a required gross income of $136,500."

That’s not poverty. That’s living an honest life with two cars and an apartment with healthcare and food. Trips to Va wine country and Major cities are cheap ways to have ‘vacations’ like camping. Amazing that poverty is now considered having all those things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:140K can be rich in DC depending on your situation.

For example my kid lives in a rent controlled apt in Adam Morgan.

The women who is on site manager has two kids and is married. She does the apt showings, makes sure work is done by porter and staff. But the building is old and runs like clockwork so not really a full time job. Just has to be around for stuff like when an apt is is free to be shown and check work is actually done.

She does it for free and in return she gets a free two bedroom apartment, utilities and parking included. Kids school is up the block she walks them to and from school.

If her husband made 140K she be in my opinion rich.

A dual income couple both in the office with childcare and a mortgage at 140K would be poor.

That is exactly his point. In his article, he says the poverty line for a dual-income couple with 2 kids who need childcare and a mortgage. This is pasted from his article:

"Using conservative, national-average data:

Childcare: $32,773
Housing: $23,267
Food: $14,717
Transportation: $14,828
Healthcare: $10,567
Other essentials: $21,857
Required net income: $118,009

Add federal, state, and FICA taxes of roughly $18,500, and you arrive at a required gross income of $136,500."

That’s not poverty. That’s living an honest life with two cars and an apartment with healthcare and food. Trips to Va wine country and Major cities are cheap ways to have ‘vacations’ like camping. Amazing that poverty is now considered having all those things.

100%. This thread was shocking to read. Since when is summer camp or expensive kid activities an essential? People look at how the UMC lives and assumes that means the MC gets those things too and if not, that means they’re poverty level.