Poverty level is $140,000 for a family. Really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

It can be done. We never felt poor.

You know things are more expensive than 10-15 years ago, right?

I also find it hard to believe you paid for daycare for two kids on an $80k income, even 15 years ago.

People like the PP always have a grandmother who provided free childcare or some other significant financial help that they completely dismiss, in favor of the narrative that they did it on their own.

The reality is that an 80K salary wouldn’t even be enough to cover the mortgage on the tiniest of single family homes in Bethesda.

I live nearby in Rockville and prices have gone up so much that I wouldn’t be able to afford my own house if we were buying today. And I only bought 10 years ago.

It takes an enormous lack of self awareness to not understand the role that luck plays in the timing of the housing market. I would expect similar lack of self awareness about other factors like an inheritance that paid for the Bethesda house or years of free childcare from family.

Something isn't adding up with the pp's story. Where in Bethesda could someone afford to buy a SFH on ~$100k HHI in 2010? As you said, it seems like they must have come into money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

It can be done. We never felt poor.

Could you please post a Zillow link of a SFH in Bethesda that a family of 4 with a 140k income could afford?

I would honestly love to see that and would jump on it in a heartbeat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://wapo.st/4pySw6b

This makes a lot of sense. DCUM would probably say more like 250K, but the world is catching up with DCUM.

Anyone who cannot raise a family on 50K a year is just wasting money.

How old are you? Do you have any idea how much child care costs? Even a cheap in-home daycare will cost $2k/month for two kids. A cheap two-bedroom apartment is going to cost $1.5k/month.

Even after deductions and credits, that pretty much takes up your entire net income. Without factoring in utilities, food, transportation, clothing, etc.

Subsidized housing and child care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He really wasn't calculating it as a poverty level. More of a solid middle class level in a metro area.

I don't agree with the number, but I think the high cost of child care really screws up other poverty level numbers.

I believe it goes deeper than that- he's calculated that this is the threshold that will prevent people from living "normal lives" - they won't get married or have children b/c of they won't be able to provide a stable roof over their kids heads or healthcare or healthy food. this is the donut hole were you dont earn enough for any help but also dont earn enough to support a family. He's positing that a wage that ends a line of human beings - wont sustain life past one generation , is poverty level in the context of the modern United States and its GDP. As in it's enough for you to live on but you wont feel able to continue your genetic line, it'll end with you without you wanting it to. Procreation is a very strong biological impulse so if economic factors are strong enough to override that impulse it has to be something- whether you call it the poverty line or something else. I am not referring to childless by choice people- im talking about ppl who forego children b/c they are afraid they wont be able to provide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

It can be done. We never felt poor.

dude- you were sleeping in your living room, you were poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://wapo.st/4pySw6b

This makes a lot of sense. DCUM would probably say more like 250K, but the world is catching up with DCUM.

Anyone who cannot raise a family on 50K a year is just wasting money.

How old are you? Do you have any idea how much child care costs? Even a cheap in-home daycare will cost $2k/month for two kids. A cheap two-bedroom apartment is going to cost $1.5k/month.

Even after deductions and credits, that pretty much takes up your entire net income. Without factoring in utilities, food, transportation, clothing, etc.

Subsidized housing and child care.

Then you're not really raising a family on $50k.

[Anonymous]

We are a family of 4 making exactly that amount. We work opposite shifts to avoid childcare costs.
We don't feel poor but my kids know we aren't rich. We have to watch our money carefully, don't go out to eat very often, our trips aren't fancy and obviously I clean my own house.
The biggest factor here is the house. In our 20s (2012) we were able to buy a foreclosure for cheap and slowly renovate it. Those houses all get snapped up by either flippers or LLCs, even foreign ones, who rent them out. This shouldn't be legal. It's impossible for young couples who aren't wealthy to buy their own houses.

[Anonymous]

I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

...what year was this? If you've got a kid in college, we're talking at least mid to late 2000s, which is an entirely different story financially. Could you buy your house now? Would you have been able to stow any money aside for a down payment on $80k/year in 2025?

The cost of housing has skyrocketed, and that SFH in Bethesda, even in 2010, was actually not out of reach of families (not developers), even when you take into account small housing downturns in this area. Now, when a family is bidding on a house, that little stretch to outbid can mean a lot vs. a developer who can just throw in whatever is needed to get the lot and tear down the house. Your interest rate is likely significantly lower than what a family would take now.

I feel for young families in the current market/economy. There's no way we could afford to buy what are being sold as teardowns in our neighborhood. Even if you find a sympathetic or emotional seller who wants to side with families and not see their house torn down, the entry cost is still very high. But then again, the sellers are facing skyrocketing long-term care and/or nursing home costs, so they feel forced to take the highest bid.

...and we're just talking about housing. What about a car, groceries, etc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I remember when we were renting a one bedroom in Silver Spring and had two little kids. We earned 80K as a household.

And now we're in a SFH in Bethesda, still earning below 140K a year. We've lived frugal lives for decades. DC1 is in college, DC2 in high school.

...what year was this? If you've got a kid in college, we're talking at least mid to late 2000s, which is an entirely different story financially. Could you buy your house now? Would you have been able to stow any money aside for a down payment on $80k/year in 2025?

The cost of housing has skyrocketed, and that SFH in Bethesda, even in 2010, was actually not out of reach of families (not developers), even when you take into account small housing downturns in this area. Now, when a family is bidding on a house, that little stretch to outbid can mean a lot vs. a developer who can just throw in whatever is needed to get the lot and tear down the house. Your interest rate is likely significantly lower than what a family would take now.

I feel for young families in the current market/economy. There's no way we could afford to buy what are being sold as teardowns in our neighborhood. Even if you find a sympathetic or emotional seller who wants to side with families and not see their house torn down, the entry cost is still very high. But then again, the sellers are facing skyrocketing long-term care and/or nursing home costs, so they feel forced to take the highest bid.

...and we're just talking about housing. What about a car, groceries, etc?

It would have been awfully hard to find a SFH below $600k in Bethesda even back in 2010. Maybe $500k if it was in rough shape.

[Anonymous]

This entire debate is absurd and for people who think poverty means you have to consider money when buying things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are a family of 4 making exactly that amount. We work opposite shifts to avoid childcare costs.
We don't feel poor but my kids know we aren't rich. We have to watch our money carefully, don't go out to eat very often, our trips aren't fancy and obviously I clean my own house.
The biggest factor here is the house. In our 20s (2012) we were able to buy a foreclosure for cheap and slowly renovate it. Those houses all get snapped up by either flippers or LLCs, even foreign ones, who rent them out. This shouldn't be legal. It's impossible for young couples who aren't wealthy to buy their own houses.

It's pretty hard to find jobs on opposite schedules like that. And given that you still need to sleep, it couldn't have been a great situation for the kids during the day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This entire debate is absurd and for people who think poverty means you have to consider money when buying things.

Pray tell, wise one, what is poverty?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This entire debate is absurd and for people who think poverty means you have to consider money when buying things.

Most people here seem to agree that $140k isn't an accurate level for poverty. But the point is that it is an awful lot more than $32k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High cost of housing, healthcare, and transportation folks.

Child care was the biggest one. And the one most frequently ignored.

Childcare is temporary. The others are not. People like to pretend they’re not becoming absurdly expensive but they absolutely are.

It's not that temporary. You're not likely to be able to leave kids alone before/after school until age 10 or so. Before and after care is still quite expensive. People in these situations probably don't have cushy jobs that let them work from home or shift their hours.

NP. It can be expensive, but it's not daycare expensive. He calculates the cost of childcare for two at $32,000 a year, which is more than you're paying for aftercare plus camps if you're focusing on keeping costs down.

We're a two income work out of the home family with very little ability to work from home. Up until this year when one of our children is finally old enough to stay home alone/has outgrown a lot of camps, we paid:

$350/week for 9-10 weeks of summer camp per child: $7000
$700/month for 10 months of before and after care per child: $14000
Probably close to $750/child for school holiday camps (1 week of winter camp, 1 week of spring break, random other days off): $1500
So about $22,000. Which is still a lot.

[Anonymous]

This is a needed wake up call for people who think they can retire comfortably on 3 - 5 M.