Please help me plan our exploratory trip to plan a retirement-in-Europe second home

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and just checking back for the first time. Thanks for all the responses!

Based on your responses, so far we have: Toulon, Ghent, Porto, Lille, San Sebastian. Please do keep them coming!

Yes, by well-traveled, I do mean that we've visited all these countries several times (among many others), and have narrowed our list. I don't need more than 2 days in each place to know if it's something to make the list for the next round of much longer visits. As for medical care, I'm late 50s and my husband is a little older. None of our parents needed medical attention before their 80s, which is why we feel okay about a 15-year plan to own. But yes, we'd like to be no more than an hour away from a good hospital. We don't mind heat, but will probably avoid being there in August.

I used to be well-traveled but haven't been for a while. With that said, I loved Cascais in Portugal. It's a little coastal town just outside Lisbon. Seemed like a lot of expats there, in addition to Portuguese people. Maybe it's too touristy after a while - I can't say.

Your plan sounds wonderful and I don't know why there are 15 pages of people sh***ing on it. If you move to a place and don't like it - guess what, you can leave. In the meantime, this sounds like a great adventure.

Portugal is completely overrun these days.

DP A PP referred to Portugal as "pedestrian." Is it overrun with tourists or ex-pats or what is the negative about Portugal? It looks lovely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and just checking back for the first time. Thanks for all the responses!

Based on your responses, so far we have: Toulon, Ghent, Porto, Lille, San Sebastian. Please do keep them coming!

Yes, by well-traveled, I do mean that we've visited all these countries several times (among many others), and have narrowed our list. I don't need more than 2 days in each place to know if it's something to make the list for the next round of much longer visits. As for medical care, I'm late 50s and my husband is a little older. None of our parents needed medical attention before their 80s, which is why we feel okay about a 15-year plan to own. But yes, we'd like to be no more than an hour away from a good hospital. We don't mind heat, but will probably avoid being there in August.

I used to be well-traveled but haven't been for a while. With that said, I loved Cascais in Portugal. It's a little coastal town just outside Lisbon. Seemed like a lot of expats there, in addition to Portuguese people. Maybe it's too touristy after a while - I can't say.

Your plan sounds wonderful and I don't know why there are 15 pages of people sh***ing on it. If you move to a place and don't like it - guess what, you can leave. In the meantime, this sounds like a great adventure.

Portugal is completely overrun these days.

DP A PP referred to Portugal as "pedestrian." Is it overrun with tourists or ex-pats or what is the negative about Portugal? It looks lovely.

It’s overrun with tourists and expats and a very basic destination these days.

[Anonymous]

Personally I think you’ve got it all wrong, OP. I’m not sure how you can expect to move somewhere where there’s a “sense of community” when you’re not even planning on living there half time. You won’t be viewed as a local by many - you’ll be viewed as a visitor. Also, if you’re so damned “well traveled,” by doing what you’re planning on doing you’re giving that up. You’ll be staying for months on end in one place.

So why choose one place and why go through the hassle of residency and buying? Spend a few weeks or months at a different place each time instead while keeping your DMV home base. That’s what we do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and just checking back for the first time. Thanks for all the responses!

Based on your responses, so far we have: Toulon, Ghent, Porto, Lille, San Sebastian. Please do keep them coming!

Yes, by well-traveled, I do mean that we've visited all these countries several times (among many others), and have narrowed our list. I don't need more than 2 days in each place to know if it's something to make the list for the next round of much longer visits. As for medical care, I'm late 50s and my husband is a little older. None of our parents needed medical attention before their 80s, which is why we feel okay about a 15-year plan to own. But yes, we'd like to be no more than an hour away from a good hospital. We don't mind heat, but will probably avoid being there in August.

I used to be well-traveled but haven't been for a while. With that said, I loved Cascais in Portugal. It's a little coastal town just outside Lisbon. Seemed like a lot of expats there, in addition to Portuguese people. Maybe it's too touristy after a while - I can't say.

Your plan sounds wonderful and I don't know why there are 15 pages of people sh***ing on it. If you move to a place and don't like it - guess what, you can leave. In the meantime, this sounds like a great adventure.

Portugal is completely overrun these days.

DP A PP referred to Portugal as "pedestrian." Is it overrun with tourists or ex-pats or what is the negative about Portugal? It looks lovely.

It’s overrun with tourists and expats and a very basic destination these days.

What a stupid comment. An entire country labeled as “basic”? Is travel some kind of IG competition to you?

[Anonymous]

I have relatives who own a place in France and have for decades. They go there part of each year. The biggest issues have been healthcare needs and transporting pets back and forth.

I don't think they are particularly part of the community (their French isn't great) but I don't think they care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here and just checking back for the first time. Thanks for all the responses!

Based on your responses, so far we have: Toulon, Ghent, Porto, Lille, San Sebastian. Please do keep them coming!

Yes, by well-traveled, I do mean that we've visited all these countries several times (among many others), and have narrowed our list. I don't need more than 2 days in each place to know if it's something to make the list for the next round of much longer visits. As for medical care, I'm late 50s and my husband is a little older. None of our parents needed medical attention before their 80s, which is why we feel okay about a 15-year plan to own. But yes, we'd like to be no more than an hour away from a good hospital. We don't mind heat, but will probably avoid being there in August.

I used to be well-traveled but haven't been for a while. With that said, I loved Cascais in Portugal. It's a little coastal town just outside Lisbon. Seemed like a lot of expats there, in addition to Portuguese people. Maybe it's too touristy after a while - I can't say.

Your plan sounds wonderful and I don't know why there are 15 pages of people sh***ing on it. If you move to a place and don't like it - guess what, you can leave. In the meantime, this sounds like a great adventure.

Portugal is completely overrun these days.

DP A PP referred to Portugal as "pedestrian." Is it overrun with tourists or ex-pats or what is the negative about Portugal? It looks lovely.

It’s overrun with tourists and expats and a very basic destination these days.

What a stupid comment. An entire country labeled as “basic”? Is travel some kind of IG competition to you?

Quite the opposite actually. We prefer to spend time in quieter, less visited places. Portugal is definitely not that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally I think you’ve got it all wrong, OP. I’m not sure how you can expect to move somewhere where there’s a “sense of community” when you’re not even planning on living there half time. You won’t be viewed as a local by many - you’ll be viewed as a visitor. Also, if you’re so damned “well traveled,” by doing what you’re planning on doing you’re giving that up. You’ll be staying for months on end in one place.

So why choose one place and why go through the hassle of residency and buying? Spend a few weeks or months at a different place each time instead while keeping your DMV home base. That’s what we do.

Mostly agree with this, even though I wouldn't turn it such a negative light on OP. The other issue I have with OPs list of priorities is that it's basically impossible to find a place that meets the requirements, plus is reasonably affordable, AND not mostly touristy/a ghost town outside of peak season. Places that are really nice tend to be either super expensive, or super touristy to the extent that there won't be much of a local community, or very seasonal so they would not be a nice place to live 8 months out of the year when its empty. The places that aren't one of those are generally very small and don't have the necessary amenities/medical needs.

Everyone has different priorities/goals, of course. I love the idea of spending a lot of time in a quaint Mediterranean beach town every summer. But zero interest in owning anything or going there for more than 2-3 weeks.

There are some French/Italian cities where I could see myself retiring under the right set of circumstances, but they wouldn't be near the coast because of the issues above, or they would be too expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I throw in Malta? We just visited and absolutely loved it. It’s one of the few countries where you can buy citizenship through investment. I don’t imagine that we’d truly live there for retirement— mostly just use it as a long term vacation location. We’d buy a place and we’d use it with family and friends throughout the year. Big expat community.

I mostly want the EU passport. We are seriously considering it.

Thanks, yes, we were thinking about Malta also. We want to be accessible to visitors, and that's why we are a little shy about moving to Malta, Mallorca, or another island that's just a little more difficult for family and friends to reach.

French PP again. Malta is socially conservative and barely qualifies as a democracy. Abortion is criminalized, society is very patriarchal, etc. I would not like living there for months of the year. If I invest in a pied-a-terre somewhere, I would like to feel some level of connection with my neighbors. While I am Catholic, I'm not an ultra-traditionalist sort of Catholic

[Anonymous]

Another vote for Cascais - you are 30 min from Lisbon + a good airport. We were looking at real estate there and your budget would get you something nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I throw in Malta? We just visited and absolutely loved it. It’s one of the few countries where you can buy citizenship through investment. I don’t imagine that we’d truly live there for retirement— mostly just use it as a long term vacation location. We’d buy a place and we’d use it with family and friends throughout the year. Big expat community.

I mostly want the EU passport. We are seriously considering it.

Thanks, yes, we were thinking about Malta also. We want to be accessible to visitors, and that's why we are a little shy about moving to Malta, Mallorca, or another island that's just a little more difficult for family and friends to reach.

French PP again. Malta is socially conservative and barely qualifies as a democracy. Abortion is criminalized, society is very patriarchal, etc. I would not like living there for months of the year. If I invest in a pied-a-terre somewhere, I would like to feel some level of connection with my neighbors. While I am Catholic, I'm not an ultra-traditionalist sort of Catholic

Me again. Around the Mediterranean, most locals are socially conservative and variously Catholic, Orthodox (Greece), or Muslim (if you're looking at North Africa). But Malta is in a league of its own. Just FYI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does “extremely well traveled” mean? I have been to more than 120 countries and would never say something so obnoxious!

This is your contribution to the thread - a (humble?) brag, gratuitous insult to OP, and absolutely nothing helpful or relevant to the question?

OP, I’m most familiar with France of the options you’ve listed, but I’d personally look somewhere in the Alps within an hour or two of Geneva, particularly if you like to ski. It’s a gorgeous area, Geneva is easy to get to and provides access to an international airport with direct flights from the East Coast, and it’s really beautiful. Would also consider Northern Italy around Milan.

[Anonymous]

Malta soon won't be able to do the Golden Visa anymore after the EU just ruled against it. And I agree about them being conservative.

Also, if you want to buy a car, make sure you can. For instance, you can't in Italy without residency.

Lastly, for those recommending islands, think long and hard about this. I lived in Sicily for two years, and loved it, but it is isolating in many ways. We had great train connections to the mainland via train/ferry and or car/ferry, but there were days where it wasn't tenable, or the airport was closed due to Mt. Etna erupting. I don't think I would purchase on Palma or Malta unless it was my absolute dream. Also, Europe is starting to push for less budget flights and reducing flights at airports like Schiphol. Just something to keep in mind.

I think Lille is great for quick access to London and Paris. If the Med is more your thing, consider area around Salerno, Italy or Lucca in Tuscany. If you want big expat communities, then Portugal and Spain are more accessible. In other places, you may have to look harder.

[Anonymous]

I'm the original Malta poster -- sorry I derailed the thread a bit.

Switzerland is truly my fantasy retirement country. It's beautiful every season and the health care system is great. You can get everywhere by train. And the the French, German and Italian regions are all really different.

But it is very difficult to get citizenship and it's not part of the EU. The Swiss are also not very welcoming to outsiders and I'm not sure how strong the ex-pat community is.

The main reason we would consider Malta is EU citizenship. We could even get it for our grown children. We have just started to look into it -- still a bit of a fantasy for us right now. Everyone speaks English, which is great because the Maltese language is challenging. The other challenging thing is that they drive on the British side of the road. I'm sure that we could learn it pretty easily, but it might be hard for friends and family who would visit.

[Anonymous]

De Haan, Belgium, Belgian coast

France, Spain, Portugal and Itsly are too hot.

[Anonymous]

I'd look around Hyères in France. It's pretty, old, beautiful beaches, good weather and some great day trips.