S/O - Why does DCUM hate this kind of woman so much?

[Anonymous]

Many women play by the rules and have spent a lifetime trying to be a “good girl” and a “good woman” by studying hard, becoming well-read and attempting to be the antithesis of a bimbo/low-quality woman. They aim to be attractive and well-groomed without flashy overconsumption. Years of effort trying to be kind, fair, honest and at least a little bit of a feminist. So, they are mildly irritated when vapid or women with différèrent priorities don’t play by the rules and seem to thrive. These good women realize that high value men (and maybe even their husbands) admire these glossy sorts who flirt and are probably bad cooks/mothers/friends and it just doesn’t seem FAIR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me it’s a childhood thing. This is the kind of girl and woman that my mom always wanted me to be, and I could never really pull it off.
People act like this is easy, but it’s kind of hard to pull off. Your hair has to be expensively, tastefully, and recently highlighted, and your lulu pants have to hit at the right place on your ankle over the right kind of shoes. If you don’t do it right, you look like a cheap knock-off.

I don’t know that it’s jealousy, although it definitely was when I was a teenager. It’s more like I spent a lot of formative years consciously deciding that this isn’t someone that I really want to be, and it’s hard to reevaluate as an adult.

I think you are touching on something here, but then pulling back from it.

OP's question was why do y'all hate this women. I think it's because women "spent a lot of formative years consciously deciding that this isn't someone" I CAN be. Not necessarily "this isn't someone that I really want to be." Women tell themselves the latter, and then the jealousy comes boiling out and to save their own ego they have to twist themselves up like this and say things like "I don't know that it's jealousy" ... when deep down they know it is.

I'm pretty sure you want it to be jealousy, PP.

Either way -- it is.

Does dislike always look like jealousy to you? Sometimes people dislike something and are jealous as well, but sometimes they just don't like it. Sorry.

No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me it’s a childhood thing. This is the kind of girl and woman that my mom always wanted me to be, and I could never really pull it off.
People act like this is easy, but it’s kind of hard to pull off. Your hair has to be expensively, tastefully, and recently highlighted, and your lulu pants have to hit at the right place on your ankle over the right kind of shoes. If you don’t do it right, you look like a cheap knock-off.

I don’t know that it’s jealousy, although it definitely was when I was a teenager. It’s more like I spent a lot of formative years consciously deciding that this isn’t someone that I really want to be, and it’s hard to reevaluate as an adult.

This. It was also the girls like this, who had moms like this, who were unkind to me when I was young specifically because I did not have the "right" clothes and accessories. Because this is all about a uniform that conveys a specific income level and social status. And my family didn't have that when I was a kid and these girls made sure I knew.

Now I can afford that stuff and I do not want it because I view it as a sign of forced conformity and way to communicate to a very specific kind of person that you are the "right" kind of person because you have the "right" clothes and accessories. And I reject that whole dynamic.

I don't hate women like this on sight and actually have friends who dress like this and I don't care as long as they also don't care that I don't. But I don't think this look is stylish or something to be admired. It's about checking boxes and ensuring you are accepted in certain circles that exclude people who are different. No thank you.

OP. I definitely empathize with the childhood trauma. But don't you think this is a bit of a leap? The random woman in Starbucks isn't the girl you grew up with and has done you no harm. (And in fact, she may have been someone who blossomed in adulthood.) Why do you assume she excludes people? It's that unfair to her to make that assumption?

PP here and you didn't read what I wrote. I don't assume some random woman at Starbuck excludes people and I don't hate her on sight just because she looks like this. I have friends who dress this way just out of default -- they don't care about fashion or style but want to look nice and this is "UMC/wealthy suburban looking nice." I don't hold it against them.

What I said was that I hate this look. And I do. The look itself is absolutely about exclusion and conveying who is in and who is out, and it was developed explicitly to convey status because you can't look this way without lots of money and time. So I hate the look. Doesn't mean I hate everyone who looks this way. I also don't like the goth look (though I don't think it's as obnoxious as this one). Doesn't mean if I met a woman dressed in a goth way, I would hate her. I don't judge people based on how they dress.

[Anonymous]

This thread is rather interesting. I am a female and am curious what this look is and what boxes are being checked off? From above posts I gather-highlighted hair ( a specific blonde), a tennis bracelet , and some necklace that starts with an a, lululemon tights? That all seems rather vague and jewelry pieces seem like tiny details (obviously unnoticed by many but super important to some). It seems many women would fit this profile such that it doesn’t make sense to not want to be their friend or even be jealous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t mind and I genuinely like some designer pieces, but I confess I don’t understand a lot of label-obvious pieces, like a sweatshirt that says “GIVENCHY,” or a tote that has the two huge Chanel interlocking Cs.

I think that Van Cleef Alhambra earrings are objectively pretty, for example, even though they are obviously from a designer label. Whereas interlocking Chanel C earrings just…aren’t beautiful. I enjoy beauty for beauty’s sake, whether it is a Tiffany silver cuff or a no-name silver cuff.

A lot of times I wonder, why the label and not just something pretty? Who is impressed by a sweatshirt or a baseball cap that has a designer logo?

I’ve been rewatching old episodes of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and I’m dying at your description because that’s exactly how Dorit dresses and one of the reasons I’ve always disliked her.

You hit the nail on the head: it’s a very Real Housewives way to dress—especially if the pieces in question are obvious fakes (I’m looking at you, Potomac).

You know the old advice to “take something off before you leave the house”? How about we update it to be “take something off if a Real Housewife would wear it.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t mind and I genuinely like some designer pieces, but I confess I don’t understand a lot of label-obvious pieces, like a sweatshirt that says “GIVENCHY,” or a tote that has the two huge Chanel interlocking Cs.

I think that Van Cleef Alhambra earrings are objectively pretty, for example, even though they are obviously from a designer label. Whereas interlocking Chanel C earrings just…aren’t beautiful. I enjoy beauty for beauty’s sake, whether it is a Tiffany silver cuff or a no-name silver cuff.

A lot of times I wonder, why the label and not just something pretty? Who is impressed by a sweatshirt or a baseball cap that has a designer logo?

You "don't understand"? Or you are contemptuous of it? I doubt you truly "don't understand" the appeal of a Givenchy sweatshirt. You just feel the need to put yourself above it.

I truly…don’t understand why people think a GIVENCHY sweatshirt is a flex. I get why a Birkin is a flex. I get that a luxury car is a flex. I truly don’t understand a designer sweatshirt. Because it’s not a flex even though it is apparently intended to be?

Ok. So here you are proving that you fully understand why people wear sweatshirts with a designer name on them, and also proving that you just want to emphasize how you know "it's not a flex" whereas they "apparently intended it to be"?

You probably shop at Talbot's and are all "why do people wear GIVENCHY sweatshirts?? I don't get it?? Blah, blah, blah." Go wander off to Chico's, lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is OP (of this thread, not the original thread).

Appreciate the insights! This is all so intriguing and thoughtful. Sounds like it's mixture of childhood pain/parental expectations, exclusionary, and yes, jealousy.

Also appreciate the man who flat out said it's all T&A. "The Look" as someone described it obviously requires the woman to be in great shape.

I have a feeling the "high value men" DCUM is so obsessed with are going to see a difference between those T's and A's in Vuori vs 8-yr old Target leggings with busted elastic, lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t mind and I genuinely like some designer pieces, but I confess I don’t understand a lot of label-obvious pieces, like a sweatshirt that says “GIVENCHY,” or a tote that has the two huge Chanel interlocking Cs.

I think that Van Cleef Alhambra earrings are objectively pretty, for example, even though they are obviously from a designer label. Whereas interlocking Chanel C earrings just…aren’t beautiful. I enjoy beauty for beauty’s sake, whether it is a Tiffany silver cuff or a no-name silver cuff.

A lot of times I wonder, why the label and not just something pretty? Who is impressed by a sweatshirt or a baseball cap that has a designer logo?

You "don't understand"? Or you are contemptuous of it? I doubt you truly "don't understand" the appeal of a Givenchy sweatshirt. You just feel the need to put yourself above it.

I truly…don’t understand why people think a GIVENCHY sweatshirt is a flex. I get why a Birkin is a flex. I get that a luxury car is a flex. I truly don’t understand a designer sweatshirt. Because it’s not a flex even though it is apparently intended to be?

Ok. So here you are proving that you fully understand why people wear sweatshirts with a designer name on them, and also proving that you just want to emphasize how you know "it's not a flex" whereas they "apparently intended it to be"?

You probably shop at Talbot's and are all "why do people wear GIVENCHY sweatshirts?? I don't get it?? Blah, blah, blah." Go wander off to Chico's, lol.

Gee, I wonder who has designer sweatshirts and baseball caps and is just now figuring out they’re not landing as intended? Defensive much! LOL. If you want to look like a Real Housewife versus those of us who actually know and invest in quality and style, by all means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just comes off as so basic and materialistic. Too each her own, but just not my kind of person.

I just don't get why you're judging someone based on what they are wearing. Aren't we old enough to know not to do that? My friends have varying degrees of styles. Some are no make up shop at Target types and others have a bunch of designer stuff. I can't imagine just immediately deciding someone "wasn't my kind of person" based on how they dressed.

DP but I like people to be themselves. So when I see someone start to dress like someone else because they think that person is cool or whatever, then I’m not going to want to hang out with that person.

There’s a group of moms in my kids’ sport who all dress like this one mom - Golden Goose sneakers, fedoras, specific jewelry, etc. I find it to be so odd. I wear what I wear, some of which is quite expensive, because I like it, not because someone else wears it and I want to look like them. So when I think people are trying to be like someone else, that’s a sign to me that they are not my kind of person.

Now who is being "exclusionary" lol.

But don't worry -- they don't want to hang out with you either. Guarantee it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Many women play by the rules and have spent a lifetime trying to be a “good girl” and a “good woman” by studying hard, becoming well-read and attempting to be the antithesis of a bimbo/low-quality woman. They aim to be attractive and well-groomed without flashy overconsumption. Years of effort trying to be kind, fair, honest and at least a little bit of a feminist. So, they are mildly irritated when vapid or women with différèrent priorities don’t play by the rules and seem to thrive. These good women realize that high value men (and maybe even their husbands) admire these glossy sorts who flirt and are probably bad cooks/mothers/friends and it just doesn’t seem FAIR.

See everyone? JEALOUSY. Extreme jealousy. Based on imagining all kinds of things out of personal insecurity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t mind and I genuinely like some designer pieces, but I confess I don’t understand a lot of label-obvious pieces, like a sweatshirt that says “GIVENCHY,” or a tote that has the two huge Chanel interlocking Cs.

I think that Van Cleef Alhambra earrings are objectively pretty, for example, even though they are obviously from a designer label. Whereas interlocking Chanel C earrings just…aren’t beautiful. I enjoy beauty for beauty’s sake, whether it is a Tiffany silver cuff or a no-name silver cuff.

A lot of times I wonder, why the label and not just something pretty? Who is impressed by a sweatshirt or a baseball cap that has a designer logo?

You "don't understand"? Or you are contemptuous of it? I doubt you truly "don't understand" the appeal of a Givenchy sweatshirt. You just feel the need to put yourself above it.

I truly…don’t understand why people think a GIVENCHY sweatshirt is a flex. I get why a Birkin is a flex. I get that a luxury car is a flex. I truly don’t understand a designer sweatshirt. Because it’s not a flex even though it is apparently intended to be?

Ok. So here you are proving that you fully understand why people wear sweatshirts with a designer name on them, and also proving that you just want to emphasize how you know "it's not a flex" whereas they "apparently intended it to be"?

You probably shop at Talbot's and are all "why do people wear GIVENCHY sweatshirts?? I don't get it?? Blah, blah, blah." Go wander off to Chico's, lol.

Gee, I wonder who has designer sweatshirts and baseball caps and is just now figuring out they’re not landing as intended? Defensive much! LOL. If you want to look like a Real Housewife versus those of us who actually know and invest in quality and style, by all means.

PP here. I have zero "designer sweatshirts" and have never worn baseball caps. Not at all defensive. Just calling it. But I knew you were shopping at Talbot's. Hilarious. Go on with your bad self and your "quality and style." We can all picture it, I assure you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just comes off as so basic and materialistic. Too each her own, but just not my kind of person.

I just don't get why you're judging someone based on what they are wearing. Aren't we old enough to know not to do that? My friends have varying degrees of styles. Some are no make up shop at Target types and others have a bunch of designer stuff. I can't imagine just immediately deciding someone "wasn't my kind of person" based on how they dressed.

DP but I like people to be themselves. So when I see someone start to dress like someone else because they think that person is cool or whatever, then I’m not going to want to hang out with that person.

There’s a group of moms in my kids’ sport who all dress like this one mom - Golden Goose sneakers, fedoras, specific jewelry, etc. I find it to be so odd. I wear what I wear, some of which is quite expensive, because I like it, not because someone else wears it and I want to look like them. So when I think people are trying to be like someone else, that’s a sign to me that they are not my kind of person.

Now who is being "exclusionary" lol.

But don't worry -- they don't want to hang out with you either. Guarantee it.

Lol so you are upset with PP for not liking this but also need her to know that she doesn't belong anyway.

But that's the whole point. When groups of women all wear a uniform, and especially if that uniform involves expensive items that are intended to convey very specific status, it's de facto exclusionary and unless you are willing to conform to that look, you do not belong. That's why people don't like it. No one wants to be the one woman in a group who looks incorrect. But if everyone else is wearing the exact same thing, then you will stick out unless you conform. Which is some of us see groups like this and decide "nope, not for me." That's not exclusionary -- I'd be 1:1 friends with a woman in that group if she was up for it. But no I'm not going to go out to brunch with 8 women wearing the same clothes and jewelry, carrying the same handbag, who all have the same hair and makeup, when I don't look like that and don't want to. Especially because generally when there is that much conformity in appearance, there's a lot of conformity in everything else. And I don't want to spend my time feeling like the weird one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t mind and I genuinely like some designer pieces, but I confess I don’t understand a lot of label-obvious pieces, like a sweatshirt that says “GIVENCHY,” or a tote that has the two huge Chanel interlocking Cs.

I think that Van Cleef Alhambra earrings are objectively pretty, for example, even though they are obviously from a designer label. Whereas interlocking Chanel C earrings just…aren’t beautiful. I enjoy beauty for beauty’s sake, whether it is a Tiffany silver cuff or a no-name silver cuff.

A lot of times I wonder, why the label and not just something pretty? Who is impressed by a sweatshirt or a baseball cap that has a designer logo?

You "don't understand"? Or you are contemptuous of it? I doubt you truly "don't understand" the appeal of a Givenchy sweatshirt. You just feel the need to put yourself above it.

I truly…don’t understand why people think a GIVENCHY sweatshirt is a flex. I get why a Birkin is a flex. I get that a luxury car is a flex. I truly don’t understand a designer sweatshirt. Because it’s not a flex even though it is apparently intended to be?

Ok. So here you are proving that you fully understand why people wear sweatshirts with a designer name on them, and also proving that you just want to emphasize how you know "it's not a flex" whereas they "apparently intended it to be"?

You probably shop at Talbot's and are all "why do people wear GIVENCHY sweatshirts?? I don't get it?? Blah, blah, blah." Go wander off to Chico's, lol.

Gee, I wonder who has designer sweatshirts and baseball caps and is just now figuring out they’re not landing as intended? Defensive much! LOL. If you want to look like a Real Housewife versus those of us who actually know and invest in quality and style, by all means.

PP here. I have zero "designer sweatshirts" and have never worn baseball caps. Not at all defensive. Just calling it. But I knew you were shopping at Talbot's. Hilarious. Go on with your bad self and your "quality and style." We can all picture it, I assure you.

Oh honey, I’ve never even been inside a Talbot’s, but keep reaching! We see you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It just comes off as so basic and materialistic. Too each her own, but just not my kind of person.

I just don't get why you're judging someone based on what they are wearing. Aren't we old enough to know not to do that? My friends have varying degrees of styles. Some are no make up shop at Target types and others have a bunch of designer stuff. I can't imagine just immediately deciding someone "wasn't my kind of person" based on how they dressed.

DP but I like people to be themselves. So when I see someone start to dress like someone else because they think that person is cool or whatever, then I’m not going to want to hang out with that person.

There’s a group of moms in my kids’ sport who all dress like this one mom - Golden Goose sneakers, fedoras, specific jewelry, etc. I find it to be so odd. I wear what I wear, some of which is quite expensive, because I like it, not because someone else wears it and I want to look like them. So when I think people are trying to be like someone else, that’s a sign to me that they are not my kind of person.

Now who is being "exclusionary" lol.

But don't worry -- they don't want to hang out with you either. Guarantee it.

Lol so you are upset with PP for not liking this but also need her to know that she doesn't belong anyway.

But that's the whole point. When groups of women all wear a uniform, and especially if that uniform involves expensive items that are intended to convey very specific status, it's de facto exclusionary and unless you are willing to conform to that look, you do not belong. That's why people don't like it. No one wants to be the one woman in a group who looks incorrect. But if everyone else is wearing the exact same thing, then you will stick out unless you conform. Which is some of us see groups like this and decide "nope, not for me." That's not exclusionary -- I'd be 1:1 friends with a woman in that group if she was up for it. But no I'm not going to go out to brunch with 8 women wearing the same clothes and jewelry, carrying the same handbag, who all have the same hair and makeup, when I don't look like that and don't want to. Especially because generally when there is that much conformity in appearance, there's a lot of conformity in everything else. And I don't want to spend my time feeling like the weird one.

Yup, it’s the Big Dumb Hat, oversized scarf and long boots crowd from 2018…we all know the type. In 2007 they were wearing statement necklaces and skinny jeans and Tory Burch flats.

[Anonymous]

I’m admittedly jealous of these women and their clothes (not their lives, mine is very good). I don’t have the body or the money for the style. Although we are UMC by DCUM HHI standards. Multiple of these women are in my Sunday school class, but they are wonderful women who I consider friends. I also see these type of women at our country club (ANCC), and I just accept that I am not like them. I noticed just last night that I was the only woman with my hair up, but I was in the military for many years and had to wear my hair up. In my middle age, I’ve just not managed to figure out wearing my hair down.