Kid didn’t finish MAP-R?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Well that's lovely for those of us who are hoping to get in the lottery for CES this year....

It won't affect the lottery, because the lottery is already set to a cutoff that isn't far above grade level.

True for low SES schools but not all. The cutoff to qualify for the lottery was the 95th percentile a couple years ago at our Bethesda ES.

95%ile isnt far about grade level.
You can see, for example that 95% ile (among all students) on SAT is 1360, which, if you look at what's on the test, is solid on grade-level content but not perfect, not far above.

https://research.collegeboard.org/reports/sat-suite/understanding-scores/sat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

So if a child finishes test early, does that means it is more likely low scores? The longer tests you take, the higher the scores?

No—there is a specific number of questions.

No, there are typically 35 to 45 questions. It's not the same number for every kid.

Between grades, or programs, or classrooms? Can classmates within the same program (like CM) get a different number of questions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Well that's lovely for those of us who are hoping to get in the lottery for CES this year....

It won't affect the lottery, because the lottery is already set to a cutoff that isn't far above grade level.

True for low SES schools but not all. The cutoff to qualify for the lottery was the 95th percentile a couple years ago at our Bethesda ES.

95%ile isnt far about grade level.
You can see, for example that 95% ile (among all students) on SAT is 1360, which, if you look at what's on the test, is solid on grade-level content but not perfect, not far above.

https://research.collegeboard.org/reports/sat-suite/understanding-scores/sat

We’re talking about MAP-R. What the college board says about the SAT test is irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right… and therefore you have no clue whose percentiles are dropping…

But that just means that the they will use the same table

Correct. NWEA establishes norms every 5 years. The 2020 norms, which were based on sample scores across the country from test takers 2 to 4 years earlier, won't be replaced until some time next year. These national norms are the percentiles that go on the report.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Well that's lovely for those of us who are hoping to get in the lottery for CES this year....

It won't affect the lottery, because the lottery is already set to a cutoff that isn't far above grade level.

True for low SES schools but not all. The cutoff to qualify for the lottery was the 95th percentile a couple years ago at our Bethesda ES.

95%ile isnt far about grade level.
You can see, for example that 95% ile (among all students) on SAT is 1360, which, if you look at what's on the test, is solid on grade-level content but not perfect, not far above.

https://research.collegeboard.org/reports/sat-suite/understanding-scores/sat

We’re talking about MAP-R. What the college board says about the SAT test is irrelevant.

But the correlation between MAP and SAT is about 0.80. Which is pretty much as high as correlations between tests go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right… and therefore you have no clue whose percentiles are dropping…

But that just means that the they will use the same table

Correct. NWEA establishes norms every 5 years. The 2020 norms, which were based on sample scores across the country from test takers 2 to 4 years earlier, won't be replaced until some time next year. These national norms are the percentiles that go on the report.

Outrageous. The drop of 4 points can be very significant appearing drop in percentiles for some students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting… here is NWEA’s analysis of the new algorithm — https://www.nwea.org/uploads/Research-MAP-Growth-with-enhanced-item-selection-algorithm-updates-on-score-compatibility_NWEA_Research_Guide.pdf

They find minor differences in the RIT and not the dramatic shifts PPs are reporting

This requires way more analysis and resolution than provided. All they provide here are the means... what about scores within certain bands of performers?

[Anonymous]

It shouldn't make a difference for CES admissions because they are locally normed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right… and therefore you have no clue whose percentiles are dropping…

But that just means that the they will use the same table

Correct. NWEA establishes norms every 5 years. The 2020 norms, which were based on sample scores across the country from test takers 2 to 4 years earlier, won't be replaced until some time next year. These national norms are the percentiles that go on the report.

Outrageous. The drop of 4 points can be very significant appearing drop in percentiles for some students.

No, because MAP scores are already +/- 3 margin of error in RIT score (which includes percentile ranges like 87-93, and 74-85) and fluctuate a lot from season to season for a kid, which is why NWEA (makers of MAP) recommend MAP for individual differentiated learning, not as cutoffs for competitive admission programs.

What's outrageous is MCPS using a test for a purpose well outside its intended scope of applicability.

[Anonymous]

"No, because MAP scores are already +/- 3 margin of error in RIT score"

This is the margin of error for an individual score based on the sample size of the question pool. The errors in this study are based on 1000s of kids and are negotiable. There is a substantial drop on average scores (4 points) in some grades. This will significantly affect average percentiles for individual kids.

What's outrageous is MCPS using a test for a purpose well outside its intended scope of applicability.

The fact remains that MCPS is using that for that purpose and that this will affect significant number of children in unknown way. Pretending that averages are all that matters is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Just wondering if the scores go down for everyone does it mean that percentiles are recalculated? Or the same score to percentile chart still applies?

Scores don't go down for "everyone". They go down for the 99+% ile students who no longer will get off-the-charts RIT scores. They will still get 99%ile, which is the highest officially reported score. It will created a soft score ceiling by grade, eliminating the "reward" for being tears ahead in marh.

(The unofficial nweapercentilecalculator was never accurate, because MAP scores are based on item difficulty level, not bell-curved.)

What are you talking about? A drop of 10,15,20 points will of course reflect a drop in percentile.

Ooh, please explain how exactly this would work.

You can see for yourself
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/NormsTables.pdf


Suppose a kid scored 237 on reading in the spring of 4th grade. That is 98th percentile. The same kid now scores 227 (drop of 10 points). The percentile for that in 5th grade is 87th.
Of course if someone is scoring 280 and drops 10 points they are not effected and remain in the 99th percentile.

But it's only 87th percentile if you are using the old tables based on old results. If everybody's scores are dropping then percentiles remain the same.

Actually 227 fall reading for a 5th grade is 92nd percentile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Well that's lovely for those of us who are hoping to get in the lottery for CES this year....

It won't affect the lottery, because the lottery is already set to a cutoff that isn't far above grade level.

True for low SES schools but not all. The cutoff to qualify for the lottery was the 95th percentile a couple years ago at our Bethesda ES.

I think you may have been misinformed. The only data was have is from the MPIA request put in by the MCPTA Gifted and Talented Committee and that showed that the cut-off at the lowest FARMS schools was 92nd percentile for MAP-R and 93rd percentile for MAP-M. That's, again, at the absolute lowest FARMS schools in MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

"No, because MAP scores are already +/- 3 margin of error in RIT score"

This is the margin of error for an individual score based on the sample size of the question pool. The errors in this study are based on 1000s of kids and are negotiable. There is a substantial drop on average scores (4 points) in some grades. This will significantly affect average percentiles for individual kids.

What's outrageous is MCPS using a test for a purpose well outside its intended scope of applicability.

The fact remains that MCPS is using that for that purpose and that this will affect significant number of children in unknown way. Pretending that averages are all that matters is ridiculous.

If everyone drops 4 points, the percentiles don't change.

[Anonymous]

Do they definitely make sure each kid finishes? My kid (new to middle school) didn't finish his math MAP from Monday and it's Friday, and he said they still haven't told him when he'll get time to finish it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid would often take multiple sessions. They were a 99%ile scorer pretty often. The test goes and goes and goes until it feels the kid is out of their depth.

Just as a heads up, NWEA changed their algorithms this year on the MAP tests. Their algorithms now emphasize grade level standards and curriculum. This means that if I child is in sixth grade for instance, they're going to get A LOT of sixth grade questions. More so than before where it was just straight up ability/knowledge of the student with no limit to being given higher grade level questions. Because of this focus on grade-level material, there is less opportunity for children who generally test higher to get tougher, above grade level questions, resulting in lower scores.

My child had their MAP-R test this week. They normally score 98-99th percentile. They said the screen to log in noticeably said "grade 6" with everyone's names when it never was linked to a grade level before. The test they said was noticeably easier, yet their score dropped about ten points. Everyone in the school was upset, many were crying, and it was the talk of lunch because everyone's scores dropped dramatically (many had drops of 17 points, over 20 points, etc). These kids were those who were scoring very high on MAP-R, had been in CES and/or enrichment the previous year.

It looks like the algorithm change also impacts MAP-M. My child has not finished, but they score 99th percentile and they said the questions were a lot easier than they normally are, and that so far, they were all 6th grade level questions or thereabouts (pythagorean theorem, interquartile ranges, dividing fractions, etc). They kept waiting to get trigonometry questions, like they got last spring, but it hasn't gotten any harder yet. So we anticipate that math scores will go down as well.

Just be prepared if your child's score drops, as it isn't necessarily their effort as much as the algorithm changes now being used by NWEA.

https://njgifted.org/understanding-nwea-maprit-scores/
https://ecragroup.com/2024/05/02/nwea-map-growth-assessment-changes-for-the-2024-2025-school-year/#:~:text=NWEA%20has%20changed%20its%20item,by%20the%20current%20test%20version.

Well that's lovely for those of us who are hoping to get in the lottery for CES this year....

It won't affect the lottery, because the lottery is already set to a cutoff that isn't far above grade level.

True for low SES schools but not all. The cutoff to qualify for the lottery was the 95th percentile a couple years ago at our Bethesda ES.

I think you may have been misinformed. The only data was have is from the MPIA request put in by the MCPTA Gifted and Talented Committee and that showed that the cut-off at the lowest FARMS schools was 92nd percentile for MAP-R and 93rd percentile for MAP-M. That's, again, at the absolute lowest FARMS schools in MCPS.

I'm not misinformed - you just have limited data. Based on my first-hand experience with my DC, the cutoff was 95th percentile for MAP-R the year DC took the test as a 3rd grader. DC scored in the 94th percentile and this disqualified DC from the lottery pool based on DC's locally normed score, per the multiple individuals I spoke to at DC's school and central office. I have no idea what's in the MPIA data that was reviewed, but perhaps it's a limited data set or restricted to a particular year, or not complete.