Comparing LACs
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Anonymous
You can’t. |
Anonymous
They require enrolling students to submit scores after the fact for data. |
Anonymous
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
SAT Composite percentile 25th - 50th - 75th Bowdoin: 1340 - 1460 - 1520 Middlebury: 1420 - 1466 - 1520 Wesleyan: 1310 - 1430 - 1505 ACT Composite 24th - 50th - 75th Bowdoin: 31 - 33 - 35 Middlebury: 33 - 33.42 - 35 Wesleyan: 305. - 32 - 34 Percent in top 10% of HS class: Bowdoin: 83% Middlebury: Not reported Wesleyan: 78.8% Look pretty comparable to me. [/quote] These numbers are from older CDS, when Bowdoin was reporting scores whether submitted or not. Percent in top 10% info is not very meaningful because such a small fraction of attending students submit this data.[/quote] Those numbers are from 2022-2023 CDS. Here's 2023-2024: SAT Composite percentile 25th - 50th - 75th Bowdoin: 1470 - 1510 - 1530 Middlebury: 1440 - 1500 - 1530 Wesleyan: 1300 - 1430 - 1500 ACT Composite 25th - 50th - 75th Bowdoin: 33 - 34 - 35 Middlebury: 33 - 34 - 34 Wesleyan: 31 - 33 - 34 [b]Again, differences not substantial. [/b] Bowdoin has a lower acceptance rate partly because they have a much smaller class to fill. Bowdoin has 1900 students, compared to Midd at 2,800 and Wesleyan at 3,000. Otherwise, their student bodies are very similar. [/quote] And the differences go away completely when you look at the Wes scores for submitters only—the apples to apples comparison. In fact, Wesleyan jumps to the top of the list on SAT (and is the same as Bowdoin on ACT). SAT Composite percentile 25th - 50th - 75th Wesleyan: 1480 - 1520 - 1560 Bowdoin: 1470 - 1510 - 1530 Middlebury: 1440 - 1500 - 1530 ACT Composite 25th - 50th - 75th Wesleyan: 33 - 34 - 35 Bowdoin: 33 - 34 - 35 Middlebury: 33 - 34 - 34 [/quote] Not sure where these numbers come from. The Wesleyan CDS 2023-24 has reports SAT scores of 1300-1430-1500 for the 52% reporting. https://wesleyan0.sharepoint.com/  :/r/sites/IRDataandReports/_layouts/15/Doc.aspx?sourcedoc=%7B511364A2-342B-44F5-9598-5AFF50E81CCB%7D&file=CDS_2023-2024.xlsx&action=default&mobileredirect=true[/quote]
Yeah, the numbers don't add up....hmm. https://www.wesleyan.edu/admission/apply/class-profile.html and [/quote] As explained earlier in the thread, [b]for the CDS Wes includes scores for all enrolled students, even from students who don’t submit as part of their application[/b]. Forthe class profile, they include only the scores submitted for consideration in admissions. The class profile scores are the ones to look at if you are deciding whether or not to submit.[/quote] Where do they say that? The CDS itself just says 52% submitted scores. Would be very odd not to say 100% if everyone was required to submit and the numbers shared were for the entire class. It’s seems the more straightforward (and typical) interpretation is the CDS is for matriculating students while the admitted student profile was for accepted students who may or may not attend. Fwiw, for that same year (23-24) they had 19% reporting ACT scores with a composite range of 31-34. [/quote] The profile has information for admitted (top of the page) and enrolled (table on the second half of the page) students. The enrolled student numbers on the profile are higher than the numbers on the CDS. It’s currently showing class of 2028, so you can’t compare with current CDS numbers, but the class of 2027 numbers on the profile were nearly identical. [/quote] That seems like a possible explanation, but it’s not the only possible explanation, and without an indication on the CDS that the entire class took tests and their scores are captured (either with words or the percentage submitting SAT and/or ACT adding to at least 100) I think it’s reasonable to think there’s a different, simpler explanation where the school isn’t denying itself credit. A 100% submission rate would be impressive to those looking at test scores after all! To me, it’s interesting the top part of the profile (for all admits) has a % for admitted students submitting as does the CDS, but the bottom part of the profile (for admitted students) does not. I think this might explain the discrepancy. The CDS might well include test scores submitted post admission, but it still only comes to 53% (class of 27) for enrolling students for the SAT (medians of 710 M and 710 V). So one explanation for why the bottom part of the profile has higher median scores (750 M and 760 V for that year) is that it’s averaging over an undisclosed smaller percentage of admitted students who actually submitted scores before admits were chosen. Why don’t they just use the higher scores but lower % reporting on the CDS? I don’t know. I believe there used to be a USNWR penalty if below 50% reported, so there was at least a ranking incentive to get more scores to get over the penalty threshold before reporting via CDS and to USNWR, but I think that’s been relaxed since Covid (they just add more weight to grad rates), so maybe it’s just for consistency. I haven’t found anything on the Wesleyan site saying all admitted students must submit test scores before enrolling, just that those who submitted self-reported scores need to send official copies before school starts. In short, I think the standardized CDS and not the proprietary class profile has the most appropriate information for comparing Wesleyan to other schools. There might’ve been a higher test average when the % reporting was lower earlier in the cycle, but it never reached 100%, and the ~50% on the CDS is in the ballpark for its peer group, which is another indication it’s what we should be using for comparisons. |
Anonymous
That seems like a possible explanation, but it’s not the only possible explanation, and without an indication on the CDS that the entire class took tests and their scores are captured (either with words or the percentage submitting SAT and/or ACT adding to at least 100) I think it’s reasonable to think there’s a different, simpler explanation where the school isn’t denying itself credit. A 100% submission rate would be impressive to those looking at test scores after all! To me, it’s interesting the top part of the profile (for all admits) has a % for admitted students submitting as does the CDS, but the bottom part of the profile (for admitted students) does not. I think this might explain the discrepancy. The CDS might well include test scores submitted post admission, but it still only comes to 53% (class of 27) for enrolling students for the SAT (medians of 710 M and 710 V). So one explanation for why the bottom part of the profile has higher median scores (750 M and 760 V for that year) is that it’s averaging over an undisclosed smaller percentage of admitted students who actually submitted scores before admits were chosen. Why don’t they just use the higher scores but lower % reporting on the CDS? I don’t know. I believe there used to be a USNWR penalty if below 50% reported, so there was at least a ranking incentive to get more scores to get over the penalty threshold before reporting via CDS and to USNWR, but I think that’s been relaxed since Covid (they just add more weight to grad rates), so maybe it’s just for consistency. I haven’t found anything on the Wesleyan site saying all admitted students must submit test scores before enrolling, just that those who submitted self-reported scores need to send official copies before school starts. In short, I think the standardized CDS and not the proprietary class profile has the most appropriate information for comparing Wesleyan to other schools. There might’ve been a higher test average when the % reporting was lower earlier in the cycle, but it never reached 100%, and the ~50% on the CDS is in the ballpark for its peer group, which is another indication it’s what we should be using for comparisons. |
Anonymous
They do not. They do require those who self-reported send official score reports before school starts, but so does every school. |
Anonymous
My kid goes to Wesleyan. Was admitted TO and was required to submit his scores before starting school. It is my understanding that what I said above—that the CDS includes all enrolled student data, regardless of whether they submitted with their applications—is true. If you really care, call the admissions office. |
Anonymous
They ABSOLUTELY DO. Good lord. Kids who are admitted TO have to submit scores before they start school in August. |
Anonymous
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Per CDS instructions, the CDS reports test scores for kids who submitted test scores as part of their application AND enrolled at the university.
It DOES NOT include kids who applied test optional or those who were accepted but did not enroll. Most colleges ask test optional applicants who were accepted and enrolled to provide test scores for university tracking efforts. Universities use this data to understand how TO kids perform relative to kids who provided scores. |
Anonymous
No, they don’t, regardless of your all caps. See second to last question on their FAQ page. If “required” then everyone would have to test and submit, but that’s not what they say. https://www.wesleyan.edu/admission/apply/faq.html The most logical explanation for the near 100 point discrepancy between their CDS scores and the enrolled student scores on their profile is the latter is an even smaller subset of the class than the ~50% mentioned in the CDS sample. If you want to compare Wesleyan to other schools, use the CDS. Class profiles have inconsistent conventions so are a moving target from one school to the next. |
Anonymous
Third to last question (not second) which says “Wesleyan will not require any matriculating student who did not take an ACT, SAT, or SAT Subject Tests to take exams prior to enrolling.” That means scores are not required. As already mentioned, their SAT % per CDS is roughly 50%. Their ACT is roughly 20%. Even if those are completely separate groups with no overlap (they aren’t), that’s ~70%. If comparing scores to another school, also compare the % reporting. The magically higher bottom of their profile is silent on the % reporting, but the best explanation in light of the CDS is that the profile was averaged over a smaller and more self-selecting group. Wesleyan is a great school and none of this changes that. But of course the best way to compare school stats between schools is with the CDS. That’s why it exists. |
Anonymous
DC goes to a test optional school, and this never occurred. The college doesn't care about your score if you are already enrolled. |
Anonymous
This is true. I got into Pomona and my sister attended Scripps. Everyone knows this |
Anonymous
If there is a difference, it is small. The way to differentiate among elite LACs is by focusing on the campus culture. Many have jock/athlete cultures (E.g. Williams College), while others have more scholarly cultures (e.g. Swarthmore College) or artsy cultures, etc. |
Anonymous
I think part of the confusion in this thread is that a few schools (e.g. Wesleyan, Bowdoin up to last year) require entering students to provide all available test scores whether those scores were submitted as part of their application or not. The best way to confirm this is to compare the CDS data, which gives schools some flexibility about how they present their data, with the IPEDS data (accessible via College Navigator) which has uniform reporting standards. So for Wesleyan's class entering fall of 2023, the CDS data shows that 52% submitted SAT scores, the 25/50/75 scores for SAT EBRW were 660/710/750, the 25/50/75 scores for SAT math were 630/710/760, while the IPEDS data shows that 28% submitted SAT scores, the 25/50/75 scores for SAT EBRW were 720/750/770, the 25/50/75 scores for SAT math were 730/760/770. The difference reflects the obvious fact that students who don't submit test scores with their application tend to have significantly lower test scores than those who do. Reported scores from schools which show <50% score submittal rates (ACT+SAT) in their IPEDS data should probably not be taken too seriously. Amongst the highly ranked SLACS, most have score submittal rates in the 55-60% range (Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, Hamilton, Haverford, Swarthmore, Williams) but some have significantly lower submittal rates in the 40-45% range (CMC, Middlebury, Pomona, Wesleyan). |
Anonymous
| I think Bowdoin and Wellesley are in the same category and reputation as WASP. |