Serious question: why are tech suits allowed in summer league dual meets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a direct stake because my kids are all 12U.

That said, I am baffled by the willful ignorance and those being intentionally obtuse. People care for the same reason they care about the club swimmers coming in and dominating all the A meets. There are a lot of people across the metro area who cannot pay thousands for club swim or $600 for a suit that is only good for a few wears. Both the suit and access to club swim give kids a significant advantage over the traditional summer swim only kids whose family dues and swim team membership are several hundred dollars combined.

All the posts justifying wearing these suits, prove my point. “My kid only wears it to qualify for all stars or in a close meet.”

This is a recreational league, allowance of expensive swimsuits that give an advantage to a swimmer is certainly unfair, even if it is within the rules.

You don’t think this same discrepancy between the haves / have nots are in every other sports? Come on. At the Olympic level there was just a story about a woman’s team that didn’t have cleats. It’s everywhere and in every sport.

DP. USA swimming specifically banned tech suits for 12U because they didn’t want them to be a barrier to entry to a sport that otherwise does not require expensive equipment.

How would you feel if 7 and 8 year olds in rec summer swim were wearing $500 tech suits? Is that ok because every sport has rich kids and poor kids? The only reason there are no tech suits to be purchased in toddler sizes is because USA swimming made a good decision by banning those suits for 12u. That is the only reason why manufacturers don’t make them. It can be a good thing when organizations make rules to emphasize accessibility and discourage throwing money at youth sports, rec or otherwise. I bet there are plenty of dance, gymnastics and cheer parents who wish someone would curb how expensive the uniforms and costumes are.

Yes, this exactly!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

Little kids are in no ways focused on the suits of the older kids. This is a creative argument. We need to get all those 8 and Unders in Speedo’s I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

Little kids are in no ways focused on the suits of the older kids. This is a creative argument. We need to get all those 8 and Unders in Speedo’s I guess.

My 8u explicitly asked for both a tech suit and a speedo precisely because he noticed the suits of older kids. In our summer swim team, and I imagine. most others, the little kids IDOLIZE the big kids and they definitely notice what they wear. Several of the 8u boys ended up getting speedos this season because they wanted to be like the teens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

This is definitely not one of the best parts about summer swim. Correct examples are:

Younger swimmers having positive role models

Traditions (pep rallys, pot lucks)

Team building (cheers, body paint, outside the pool activities)

Positive peer pressure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

Little kids are in no ways focused on the suits of the older kids. This is a creative argument. We need to get all those 8 and Unders in Speedo’s I guess.

My 8u explicitly asked for both a tech suit and a speedo precisely because he noticed the suits of older kids. In our summer swim team, and I imagine. most others, the little kids IDOLIZE the big kids and they definitely notice what they wear. Several of the 8u boys ended up getting speedos this season because they wanted to be like the teens.

Had you bought your son a black suit, he would not have know the difference bw that and a tech suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a direct stake because my kids are all 12U.

That said, I am baffled by the willful ignorance and those being intentionally obtuse. People care for the same reason they care about the club swimmers coming in and dominating all the A meets. There are a lot of people across the metro area who cannot pay thousands for club swim or $600 for a suit that is only good for a few wears. Both the suit and access to club swim give kids a significant advantage over the traditional summer swim only kids whose family dues and swim team membership are several hundred dollars combined.

All the posts justifying wearing these suits, prove my point. “My kid only wears it to qualify for all stars or in a close meet.”

This is a recreational league, allowance of expensive swimsuits that give an advantage to a swimmer is certainly unfair, even if it is within the rules.

You don’t think this same discrepancy between the haves / have nots are in every other sports? Come on. At the Olympic level there was just a story about a woman’s team that didn’t have cleats. It’s everywhere and in every sport.

DP. USA swimming specifically banned tech suits for 12U because they didn’t want them to be a barrier to entry to a sport that otherwise does not require expensive equipment.

How would you feel if 7 and 8 year olds in rec summer swim were wearing $500 tech suits? Is that ok because every sport has rich kids and poor kids? The only reason there are no tech suits to be purchased in toddler sizes is because USA swimming made a good decision by banning those suits for 12u. That is the only reason why manufacturers don’t make them. It can be a good thing when organizations make rules to emphasize accessibility and discourage throwing money at youth sports, rec or otherwise. I bet there are plenty of dance, gymnastics and cheer parents who wish someone would curb how expensive the uniforms and costumes are.

Agree with this. Summer swim has traditionally been like recreational insert sport - soccer, baseball, etc. It is designed to teach and increase interest in the sport. Expensive gear, private professional coaching etc is not in the spirit of the rec level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a direct stake because my kids are all 12U.

That said, I am baffled by the willful ignorance and those being intentionally obtuse. People care for the same reason they care about the club swimmers coming in and dominating all the A meets. There are a lot of people across the metro area who cannot pay thousands for club swim or $600 for a suit that is only good for a few wears. Both the suit and access to club swim give kids a significant advantage over the traditional summer swim only kids whose family dues and swim team membership are several hundred dollars combined.

All the posts justifying wearing these suits, prove my point. “My kid only wears it to qualify for all stars or in a close meet.”

This is a recreational league, allowance of expensive swimsuits that give an advantage to a swimmer is certainly unfair, even if it is within the rules.

You don’t think this same discrepancy between the haves / have nots are in every other sports? Come on. At the Olympic level there was just a story about a woman’s team that didn’t have cleats. It’s everywhere and in every sport.

DP. USA swimming specifically banned tech suits for 12U because they didn’t want them to be a barrier to entry to a sport that otherwise does not require expensive equipment.

How would you feel if 7 and 8 year olds in rec summer swim were wearing $500 tech suits? Is that ok because every sport has rich kids and poor kids? The only reason there are no tech suits to be purchased in toddler sizes is because USA swimming made a good decision by banning those suits for 12u. That is the only reason why manufacturers don’t make them. It can be a good thing when organizations make rules to emphasize accessibility and discourage throwing money at youth sports, rec or otherwise. I bet there are plenty of dance, gymnastics and cheer parents who wish someone would curb how expensive the uniforms and costumes are.

Agree with this. Summer swim has traditionally been like recreational insert sport - soccer, baseball, etc. It is designed to teach and increase interest in the sport. Expensive gear, private professional coaching etc is not in the spirit of the rec level.

I have zero problems putting equipment boundaries on summer swim. No tech suits? Fine with me. No kneeskins of any kind? Feels a little like overkill to me given that there are plenty of ultracheap ones out there under $30, but I'm glad to support a ban if it matters to others.

Where I do pause for more thought, however, is over the suggestion that kids who are deeply committed to swimming outside the summer are somehow ruining the summer experience for those who aren't. Here is my thought process. Yes, if you want to swim MCSL A meets in a higher division after about age 12 (YMMV), you would probably do well to consider winter swim. But if you don't prefer winter swim over other activities, that's why summer B meets are supposed to exist - so that everyone has the chance to race. If a given team's B meets are never-ending, chaotic, low priority, not celebrated, or not fun, that's on the reps and the boosters, and it _can_ change.

So that feels like a pretty comfortable stance until I move on to thoughts of economic equity. A kid who doesn't do winter swim because they are doing (for example) travel hockey has in theory just chosen one sport over another, along with the possibility of swimming only B meets in the summertime. But a kid who doesn't do winter swim not because they don't want to but because they can't afford any form of it, well, that bothers me - completely independent of summer swim. MoCo has access-oriented pricing for lessons (although registering for them requires a game-on internet race that might be a luxury for some families) and for RMSC, but many kids who fall in between those poles might not have a approachable way to swim regularly during the winter. I'd question that over the tech suits any day, and I wish I knew an answer for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a direct stake because my kids are all 12U.

That said, I am baffled by the willful ignorance and those being intentionally obtuse. People care for the same reason they care about the club swimmers coming in and dominating all the A meets. There are a lot of people across the metro area who cannot pay thousands for club swim or $600 for a suit that is only good for a few wears. Both the suit and access to club swim give kids a significant advantage over the traditional summer swim only kids whose family dues and swim team membership are several hundred dollars combined.

All the posts justifying wearing these suits, prove my point. “My kid only wears it to qualify for all stars or in a close meet.”

This is a recreational league, allowance of expensive swimsuits that give an advantage to a swimmer is certainly unfair, even if it is within the rules.

You don’t think this same discrepancy between the haves / have nots are in every other sports? Come on. At the Olympic level there was just a story about a woman’s team that didn’t have cleats. It’s everywhere and in every sport.

DP. USA swimming specifically banned tech suits for 12U because they didn’t want them to be a barrier to entry to a sport that otherwise does not require expensive equipment.

How would you feel if 7 and 8 year olds in rec summer swim were wearing $500 tech suits? Is that ok because every sport has rich kids and poor kids? The only reason there are no tech suits to be purchased in toddler sizes is because USA swimming made a good decision by banning those suits for 12u. That is the only reason why manufacturers don’t make them. It can be a good thing when organizations make rules to emphasize accessibility and discourage throwing money at youth sports, rec or otherwise. I bet there are plenty of dance, gymnastics and cheer parents who wish someone would curb how expensive the uniforms and costumes are.

Agree with this. Summer swim has traditionally been like recreational insert sport - soccer, baseball, etc. It is designed to teach and increase interest in the sport. Expensive gear, private professional coaching etc is not in the spirit of the rec level.

I have zero problems putting equipment boundaries on summer swim. No tech suits? Fine with me. No kneeskins of any kind? Feels a little like overkill to me given that there are plenty of ultracheap ones out there under $30, but I'm glad to support a ban if it matters to others.

Where I do pause for more thought, however, is over the suggestion that kids who are deeply committed to swimming outside the summer are somehow ruining the summer experience for those who aren't. Here is my thought process. Yes, if you want to swim MCSL A meets in a higher division after about age 12 (YMMV), you would probably do well to consider winter swim. But if you don't prefer winter swim over other activities, that's why summer B meets are supposed to exist - so that everyone has the chance to race. If a given team's B meets are never-ending, chaotic, low priority, not celebrated, or not fun, that's on the reps and the boosters, and it _can_ change.

So that feels like a pretty comfortable stance until I move on to thoughts of economic equity. A kid who doesn't do winter swim because they are doing (for example) travel hockey has in theory just chosen one sport over another, along with the possibility of swimming only B meets in the summertime. But a kid who doesn't do winter swim not because they don't want to but because they can't afford any form of it, well, that bothers me - completely independent of summer swim. MoCo has access-oriented pricing for lessons (although registering for them requires a game-on internet race that might be a luxury for some families) and for RMSC, but many kids who fall in between those poles might not have a approachable way to swim regularly during the winter. I'd question that over the tech suits any day, and I wish I knew an answer for it.

If this is what the majority of the parents who support summer swim with their volunteer hours and club dues want, then there are ways to make it happen. Forbid club swimmers outright, make summer swim practice mandatory to participate in meets, stipulate that kids who qualify for age group champs/sectionals are not able to swim A meets, etc. Another way to do it would be to have club and non club winners, but that’s pretty messy. I think the practice requirement is a good one - club swimmers who are aiming for championship meets and higher won’t (or shouldn’t) swim rec practice instead of/on top of club practice, and the club swimmers who decide to skip their LC season to swim rec are mostly kids who are not the fastest club swimmers. You could also forfeit the past results for any swimmer that misses the all stars/divisionals because they are preparing for or swimming a club meet.

I have club swimmers who did summer swim when they were 7/8, but as soon as they started swimming for their club, they preferred the LC season to summer swim, and we wouldn’t have been able to commit because of weekend travel for leisure and meets anyway.

There’s enough discord about this topic that I think the leagues should sincerely revisit their mission and whether it aligns with what the majority of the parents want. It’s glorious to boast that you have former olympians and really fast records all over the place, but the leagues need to be honest with themselves and reexamine their mission, as any good organization should from time to time.

If their mission is to facilitate a lively and competitive league while prioritizing teaching kids to swim, fostering team spirit, breaking records, and having the fastest kids, then they are doing it right. If their mission is to create a fun, recreational experience where all kids have a chance to compete, while prioritizing teaching kids to learn to swim in a team setting and promoting a level playing field, then it’s pretty clear that allowing club swimmers to skip practices and sweep the meet doesn’t align well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
If their mission is to facilitate a lively and competitive league while prioritizing teaching kids to swim, fostering team spirit, breaking records, and having the fastest kids, then they are doing it right. If their mission is to create a fun, recreational experience where all kids have a chance to compete, while prioritizing teaching kids to learn to swim in a team setting and promoting a level playing field, then it’s pretty clear that allowing club swimmers to skip practices and sweep the meet doesn’t align well.

The forward in the NVSL handbook:

"The Northern Virginia Swimming League was founded in 1956 to sponsor competitive swimming and diving events and activities among community swimming pools of Northern Virginia, and to develop in the children participating in this program -- A love for the sport, advanced aquatic skills, teamwork, and the principles of good sportsmanship. "

Seems pretty clear. NVSL is about having a competitive league. B meets are about everyone swimming.

If you have a problem with that you can always propose a rule change (or have your rep propose it) to ban club swimmers. I doubt you'd get more than a handful of teams to vote for it. If by some miracle it passed you'd see a whole bunch of teams fold. My kid's team would lose 1/3 of it's swimmers, almost every parent on the board, and almost every key volunteer (Referee, starter, most stroke and turn judges, etc.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have a direct stake because my kids are all 12U.

That said, I am baffled by the willful ignorance and those being intentionally obtuse. People care for the same reason they care about the club swimmers coming in and dominating all the A meets. There are a lot of people across the metro area who cannot pay thousands for club swim or $600 for a suit that is only good for a few wears. Both the suit and access to club swim give kids a significant advantage over the traditional summer swim only kids whose family dues and swim team membership are several hundred dollars combined.

I'm baffled by people that think club swimmers shouldn't be allowed in summer swim. Would there even be a league if you did this? Our team would lose about 1/3rd of swimmers/families. Good luck raising dues by 33% and requiring the remaining families to pick up the volunteer slots.

A large part of the motivation for my kids to swim club is so they can swim A meets in the summer.

Nowhere did I say club swimmers shouldn’t be allowed in summer swim. I just think one is being deliberately obtuse to not understand why people have a problem with kids wearing $600 swim suits that give them an edge on top of the fact those same kids are benefiting from the expensive year round training that others cannot afford.

Surely, you can understand that.

1. None of these kids are wearing $600 suits

2. None of these kids are wearing new tech suits and tech suits are really beneficial the first handful of wears.

3. Do you really think it is black and white: club swimmers can fund club swimming and all non club swimmers can’t afford it? It would be a very tiny percent in NVSL where there are kids doing summer team who want to do club swim but can’t afford it and can’t get it discounted. The vast majority don’t want to do club swim.

+1, in 99% of cases, it’s not that the parents can’t afford club swim (especially with publicly subsidized options avail in MD and VA); it’s that they and/or their kids don’t want put in the time and work required for club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If summer is supposed to fun and inclusive; a sport that athletic kids can Doswell because it is short sprints. Why allow tech suits/kneeskins to be worn at dual meets? Seems to go against the spirit of summer swim.

Division meets and all stars sure - wear them. They should not be allowed in a a regular A meet.

Yes. They don’t have motors.

[Anonymous]

I can’t believe people are still posting in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If their mission is to facilitate a lively and competitive league while prioritizing teaching kids to swim, fostering team spirit, breaking records, and having the fastest kids, then they are doing it right. If their mission is to create a fun, recreational experience where all kids have a chance to compete, while prioritizing teaching kids to learn to swim in a team setting and promoting a level playing field, then it’s pretty clear that allowing club swimmers to skip practices and sweep the meet doesn’t align well.

The forward in the NVSL handbook:

"The Northern Virginia Swimming League was founded in 1956 to sponsor competitive swimming and diving events and activities among community swimming pools of Northern Virginia, and to develop in the children participating in this program -- A love for the sport, advanced aquatic skills, teamwork, and the principles of good sportsmanship. "

Seems pretty clear. NVSL is about having a competitive league. B meets are about everyone swimming.

If you have a problem with that you can always propose a rule change (or have your rep propose it) to ban club swimmers. I doubt you'd get more than a handful of teams to vote for it. If by some miracle it passed you'd see a whole bunch of teams fold. My kid's team would lose 1/3 of it's swimmers, almost every parent on the board, and almost every key volunteer (Referee, starter, most stroke and turn judges, etc.).

Exactly… most summer swim clubs would not survive a rule excluding club swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of the desire to wear a "tech suit" (or knee skins) is because the kids wear them during year round swimming and are used to competing in them. Having to wear a suit that feels weird/different can throw a psychological wrench in things.

For MCSL 12&U, the rules allow a knee skin suit with a specific check mark. If the goal is to ensure that everyone is on a level playing field by wearing a normal suit, then why have this exception?

It’s a recreational swim league if not wearing a tech suit throws a psychological wrench in things then something is seriously wrong with the kid/parent/sport dynamic.

One of the best part about summer swim was the little and the big kids wearing the same suits/caps etc.

Little kids are in no ways focused on the suits of the older kids. This is a creative argument. We need to get all those 8 and Unders in Speedo’s I guess.

My 8u explicitly asked for both a tech suit and a speedo precisely because he noticed the suits of older kids. In our summer swim team, and I imagine. most others, the little kids IDOLIZE the big kids and they definitely notice what they wear. Several of the 8u boys ended up getting speedos this season because they wanted to be like the teens.

Had you bought your son a black suit, he would not have know the difference bw that and a tech suit.

Wrong. He’s not an idiot and he had black jammers to begin with. He definitely knows the difference between that and a Speedo/briefs. He also knows the difference between a fake tech suit (ie the 12u ones with a green check mark) and a pair of jammers. Kids talk and ask questions.