Do EVs really save you money?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVs are largely a scam. Compared to a hybrid, an EV is worse for the environment (from pollution during battery production and reduced vehicle lifespan even with battery replacements) and costs more money (vehicle price, insurance premiums, cost of electricity, rapid depreciation, etc)

None of this is actually true.

All of it is true. In some areas of the country, depending on gas prices and home electricity prices, charging is more expensive than gas. An ICE vehicle will last 2-3x as long as an EV because replacing the battery on an older EV costs more than the vehicle is worth.

There is no part of the country where charging is more than gas. Seriously name one.

And an ICE vehicle will cost a lot to keep running for 30 years. You can easily save $5-10k in maintenance and repair costs with EV.

My ICE vehicle has cost virtually nothing to maintain for the first 15 years. Mostly cheap oil changes and tires/brakes which EVs need replaced too.

When gas is near $3/gal it is absolutely near parity with home electric prices or below for a fuel efficient vehicle in virtually all of the country except places with high gas prices.

At 40mpg at $3/gallon, it’s 0.075 per mile a or roughly twice as expensive as it is to charge the average electric vehicle.

But keep living in your fantasy world. The recent spate of “sky is falling” PR about EVs has really gotten to people. All of that was based on the rate of GROWTH slowing. EV adoption is still growing as a % of total vehicle purchases just not as fast as it was last year and the press went crazy about the secret cost of EVs.

And all the knuckle draggers happily began parroting the talking points.

From here https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/

“ I wanted to see why those arguing against the economics of EVs came to such a different conclusion. For this, I contacted Patrick Anderson, whose Michigan-based consulting firm works with the auto industry and assesses the cost of EVs each year. It has consistently found most EVs to be more expensive to refuel.
Anderson told me that many economists leave out costs that should be part of any calculation of recharging costs: state EV taxes replacing gas taxes, costs of home chargers, transmission losses while recharging (about 10 percent), and the cost of driving to sometimes distant public fueling stations. These are small but real costs, he says. Together, they tip the balance toward gasoline cars.”

I mean you can cherrypick that quote but you are skipping right past—

“ In all 50 states, it’s cheaper for the everyday American to fill up with electrons — and much cheaper in some regions such as the Pacific Northwest, with low electricity rates and high gas prices.”

And—

“But critics say Anderson’s assessment overestimates or omits key assumptions: His firm’s analysis assumes EV owners use expensive public stations about 40 percent of the time (the Energy Department estimates about 20 percent), overstates battery efficiency losses, adds the “cost” of free public chargers in the form of “property taxes, tuition, consumer prices or investor burdens” and ignores government and manufacturing incentives.”

So basically that guy did everything he could to try and make EVs look more expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVs are largely a scam. Compared to a hybrid, an EV is worse for the environment (from pollution during battery production and reduced vehicle lifespan even with battery replacements) and costs more money (vehicle price, insurance premiums, cost of electricity, rapid depreciation, etc)

None of this is actually true.

All of it is true. In some areas of the country, depending on gas prices and home electricity prices, charging is more expensive than gas. An ICE vehicle will last 2-3x as long as an EV because replacing the battery on an older EV costs more than the vehicle is worth.

There is no part of the country where charging is more than gas. Seriously name one.

And an ICE vehicle will cost a lot to keep running for 30 years. You can easily save $5-10k in maintenance and repair costs with EV.

My ICE vehicle has cost virtually nothing to maintain for the first 15 years. Mostly cheap oil changes and tires/brakes which EVs need replaced too.

.

EVs don’t need oil changes and have less brake wear because of regenerative braking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EVs are largely a scam. Compared to a hybrid, an EV is worse for the environment (from pollution during battery production and reduced vehicle lifespan even with battery replacements) and costs more money (vehicle price, insurance premiums, cost of electricity, rapid depreciation, etc)

None of this is actually true.

All of it is true. In some areas of the country, depending on gas prices and home electricity prices, charging is more expensive than gas. An ICE vehicle will last 2-3x as long as an EV because replacing the battery on an older EV costs more than the vehicle is worth.

There is no part of the country where charging is more than gas. Seriously name one.

And an ICE vehicle will cost a lot to keep running for 30 years. You can easily save $5-10k in maintenance and repair costs with EV.

My ICE vehicle has cost virtually nothing to maintain for the first 15 years. Mostly cheap oil changes and tires/brakes which EVs need replaced too.

When gas is near $3/gal it is absolutely near parity with home electric prices or below for a fuel efficient vehicle in virtually all of the country except places with high gas prices.

At 40mpg at $3/gallon, it’s 0.075 per mile a or roughly twice as expensive as it is to charge the average electric vehicle.

But keep living in your fantasy world. The recent spate of “sky is falling” PR about EVs has really gotten to people. All of that was based on the rate of GROWTH slowing. EV adoption is still growing as a % of total vehicle purchases just not as fast as it was last year and the press went crazy about the secret cost of EVs.

And all the knuckle draggers happily began parroting the talking points.

From here https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/electric-vehicle-charging-price-vs-gasoline/

“ I wanted to see why those arguing against the economics of EVs came to such a different conclusion. For this, I contacted Patrick Anderson, whose Michigan-based consulting firm works with the auto industry and assesses the cost of EVs each year. It has consistently found most EVs to be more expensive to refuel.
Anderson told me that many economists leave out costs that should be part of any calculation of recharging costs: state EV taxes replacing gas taxes, costs of home chargers, transmission losses while recharging (about 10 percent), and the cost of driving to sometimes distant public fueling stations. These are small but real costs, he says. Together, they tip the balance toward gasoline cars.”

I mean you can cherrypick that quote but you are skipping right past—

“ In all 50 states, it’s cheaper for the everyday American to fill up with electrons — and much cheaper in some regions such as the Pacific Northwest, with low electricity rates and high gas prices.”

And—

“But critics say Anderson’s assessment overestimates or omits key assumptions: His firm’s analysis assumes EV owners use expensive public stations about 40 percent of the time (the Energy Department estimates about 20 percent), overstates battery efficiency losses, adds the “cost” of free public chargers in the form of “property taxes, tuition, consumer prices or investor burdens” and ignores government and manufacturing incentives.”

So basically that guy did everything he could to try and make EVs look more expensive.

The Washington post article was so bad. Another in their string of “to prove to the whiny conservatives that we don’t have a liberal bias, we will temporarily halt our liberal bias and bring you a ridiculously lopsided wrong analysis attempting a poorly thought out debunking of a liberal sacred cow”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My problem is the premium price you pay over an equivalent ICE car. EV owners are just paying for their gas savings in the higher premium for the car. Of course as EV companies continue to slash prices due to waning demand the math becomes more compelling.

We have a 2011 Prius that wasn't that expensive back in 2011 and has saved us thousands in gas

[Anonymous]

The constant worry and planning around staying charged is enough to keep me from getting an EV. The limited range, the impact of cold weather, the fact that everything is dependent on computers, chips, and wifi makes them feel susceptible to mischief, control, etc. I'm sure this seems doomsday but I like my gas vehicle that I always keep
Filled up so we can escape this city if we need to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The constant worry and planning around staying charged is enough to keep me from getting an EV. The limited range, the impact of cold weather, the fact that everything is dependent on computers, chips, and wifi makes them feel susceptible to mischief, control, etc. I'm sure this seems doomsday but I like my gas vehicle that I always keep
Filled up so we can escape this city if we need to.

If you want to be anxious that’s fine but there’s no vehicle easier to keep “filled up” than an EV and the chips are pretty much any new car. If you want to buy a car that you know you drive 400 miles without stopping in case of a nuclear attack or something then an EV is probably not for you (although there are some nice long range ones)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The constant worry and planning around staying charged is enough to keep me from getting an EV. The limited range, the impact of cold weather, the fact that everything is dependent on computers, chips, and wifi makes them feel susceptible to mischief, control, etc. I'm sure this seems doomsday but I like my gas vehicle that I always keep
Filled up so we can escape this city if we need to.

Wait till you learn what gas pumps run off of.

You get 1 tank of gas during the apocalypse - use it wisely.

[Anonymous]

1. We charge our 2 EV’s from solar panels and use free charging at work, which equals about $5200 a year for both cars (gas savings plus electricity savings).
2. Less maintenance on EV’s (no oil change, transmission issues, etc) which averages to $840 in savings a year per car (industry average numbers https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/maintenance), so $1680 total for both cars
3. Free street parking in our city for EV’s, around $200 a year per car, so $400 total
4. Purely subjective, but I would pay $10k extra for a car to be environmentally friendly, just like I pay for composting service etc.

So the total savings per car is $3640 per year. If we keep these cars for 10 years (I drove my last ICE car for 20 years), it will be $36,400 per car.


You can see above that the biggest driver is gas cost. We drive quite a bit compared to when we lived in ny and put 10k miles on our car in 3 years. In that scenario, an ev would not have been cost effective, and parking garages tended to gouge you on charging cost. For a person who drives 25k miles a year, the gas savings go up to $4300 a year, and $5200 including maintenance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1. We charge our 2 EV’s from solar panels and use free charging at work, which equals about $5200 a year for both cars (gas savings plus electricity savings).
2. Less maintenance on EV’s (no oil change, transmission issues, etc) which averages to $840 in savings a year per car (industry average numbers https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/maintenance), so $1680 total for both cars
3. Free street parking in our city for EV’s, around $200 a year per car, so $400 total
4. Purely subjective, but I would pay $10k extra for a car to be environmentally friendly, just like I pay for composting service etc.

So the total savings per car is $3640 per year. If we keep these cars for 10 years (I drove my last ICE car for 20 years), it will be $36,400 per car.


You can see above that the biggest driver is gas cost. We drive quite a bit compared to when we lived in ny and put 10k miles on our car in 3 years. In that scenario, an ev would not have been cost effective, and parking garages tended to gouge you on charging cost. For a person who drives 25k miles a year, the gas savings go up to $4300 a year, and $5200 including maintenance.

Somebody is paying for your free electricity. Do you know if it is coal or nuclear? What is the pollution and carbon impact from the production of just your vehicle’s battery alone?

Those numbers are largely inflated and don’t apply to most people.

EVs and gas vehicles both pollute but just in different ways. I consider them equal in their negative environmental impact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. We charge our 2 EV’s from solar panels and use free charging at work, which equals about $5200 a year for both cars (gas savings plus electricity savings).
2. Less maintenance on EV’s (no oil change, transmission issues, etc) which averages to $840 in savings a year per car (industry average numbers https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/maintenance), so $1680 total for both cars
3. Free street parking in our city for EV’s, around $200 a year per car, so $400 total
4. Purely subjective, but I would pay $10k extra for a car to be environmentally friendly, just like I pay for composting service etc.

So the total savings per car is $3640 per year. If we keep these cars for 10 years (I drove my last ICE car for 20 years), it will be $36,400 per car.


You can see above that the biggest driver is gas cost. We drive quite a bit compared to when we lived in ny and put 10k miles on our car in 3 years. In that scenario, an ev would not have been cost effective, and parking garages tended to gouge you on charging cost. For a person who drives 25k miles a year, the gas savings go up to $4300 a year, and $5200 including maintenance.

Somebody is paying for your free electricity. Do you know if it is coal or nuclear? What is the pollution and carbon impact from the production of just your vehicle’s battery alone?

Those numbers are largely inflated and don’t apply to most people.

EVs and gas vehicles both pollute but just in different ways. I consider them equal in their negative environmental impact.

Great, thanks for all that data you used to back up that assertion. We charge about 80% at home. Solar comes from the sun. And the free charging comes from a large corporation (vail) that is in its second year of 100% renewable energy.

[Anonymous]

I'm not ready to go full EV yet. It's not cheaper than gas cars but that's not the point of EVs. The convenience of filling up in 2 min pretty much everywhere in the country vs having to carefully plan every stop with an app and hope the charging stations are working if I want to take a road trip is making me not want to get one. If the government wants to seriously invest in nuclear power, geothermal power or hydrogen I'd be all for it. But all of these EVs (and to a large extend data centers) are just making sure that coal is not going anywhere. Unless you have a solar grid on your house, of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not ready to go full EV yet. It's not cheaper than gas cars but that's not the point of EVs. The convenience of filling up in 2 min pretty much everywhere in the country vs having to carefully plan every stop with an app and hope the charging stations are working if I want to take a road trip is making me not want to get one. If the government wants to seriously invest in nuclear power, geothermal power or hydrogen I'd be all for it. But all of these EVs (and to a large extend data centers) are just making sure that coal is not going anywhere. Unless you have a solar grid on your house, of course.

I look at it differently. We have a Volt and a full EV. We’ve had an EV since 2016 and I like the convenience of not having to stop during the week at a gas station. Plug in at home and unplug. We seldom take road trips of more than a few hundred miles that an EV can’t do.

[Anonymous]

EVs will be cost effective when electric subsidies math gas subsudiest.

[Anonymous]

I'm not plotting out my stops in advance on a road trip and then waiting in a line to then charge my car for 20 minutes. Nope. When the network and speed get better I'll think about it. Its not the money, its the hassle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1. We charge our 2 EV’s from solar panels and use free charging at work, which equals about $5200 a year for both cars (gas savings plus electricity savings).
2. Less maintenance on EV’s (no oil change, transmission issues, etc) which averages to $840 in savings a year per car (industry average numbers https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/maintenance), so $1680 total for both cars
3. Free street parking in our city for EV’s, around $200 a year per car, so $400 total
4. Purely subjective, but I would pay $10k extra for a car to be environmentally friendly, just like I pay for composting service etc.

So the total savings per car is $3640 per year. If we keep these cars for 10 years (I drove my last ICE car for 20 years), it will be $36,400 per car.


You can see above that the biggest driver is gas cost. We drive quite a bit compared to when we lived in ny and put 10k miles on our car in 3 years. In that scenario, an ev would not have been cost effective, and parking garages tended to gouge you on charging cost. For a person who drives 25k miles a year, the gas savings go up to $4300 a year, and $5200 including maintenance.

Somebody is paying for your free electricity. Do you know if it is coal or nuclear? What is the pollution and carbon impact from the production of just your vehicle’s battery alone?

Those numbers are largely inflated and don’t apply to most people.

EVs and gas vehicles both pollute but just in different ways. I consider them equal in their negative environmental impact.

It’s just wrong to say that EVs are equally as bad as ICE because of batteries. ICE use gallon after gallon of petroleum, vs a battery that is made once and can be recycled when the car is done.

The only studies that find the two equivalent are studies done by people who want to be able to say that, not people trying to do a fair assessment.