Do EVs really save you money?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are confidently stating a lot of anti-EV “facts” and “math” that clearly don’t have a f’ing clue.

Hybrids are probably the better solution for most people until charging infrastructure improves and EV production becomes less damaging for the environment.

Or hybrids are worse than EVs because you have all the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE without the driving fun of an EV.

How much are you spending on maintenance and repair? Serious question because my ICE requires a perhaps $150-300 / year unless new brakes or tires are needed.

An EV is zero routine maintenance and much less concern about something mechanical going wrong.

I mean yes, maybe it’s reasonable to get a hybrid if you take a couple long road trips a year bit maybe it’s also reasonable to consider that buying a hybrid is costing you hundreds of dollars in maintenance and fuel costs just to avoid an extra 20 mins at a rest stop on the way. Heck even if you rented for those trips you’d probably save money.

EVs need routine maintenance. Brakes, tires, alignment, etc. It doesn’t seem that different to me.

If you don’t think taking the entire internal combustion engine out of a car has no impact on maintenance and repair costs of the car then I don’t know what to say to you.

What an EV does:
- eliminates cheap oil changes
- replaces that with a deteriorating enormous battery, costing $10k-20k to replace within the vehicle lifespan

What an improvement!

.

This is not a thing. Teslas are 10-12 years old now and there is no huge wave of battery replacements that is occurring.

And if you’ve never spent any money on engine repair or maintenance in 10-12 years then you’ve either lying or incredibly lucky and I can’t wait til your timing belt gives out.

I have read stories of 10 year old Teslas that were scrapped rather than spend the $20k to replace the battery because the car was not worth that much anymore. This is absolutely happening.

Any decent vehicle will not have a timing belt give out or require major repairs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are confidently stating a lot of anti-EV “facts” and “math” that clearly don’t have a f’ing clue.

Hybrids are probably the better solution for most people until charging infrastructure improves and EV production becomes less damaging for the environment.

Or hybrids are worse than EVs because you have all the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE without the driving fun of an EV.

How much are you spending on maintenance and repair? Serious question because my ICE requires a perhaps $150-300 / year unless new brakes or tires are needed.

An EV is zero routine maintenance and much less concern about something mechanical going wrong.

I mean yes, maybe it’s reasonable to get a hybrid if you take a couple long road trips a year bit maybe it’s also reasonable to consider that buying a hybrid is costing you hundreds of dollars in maintenance and fuel costs just to avoid an extra 20 mins at a rest stop on the way. Heck even if you rented for those trips you’d probably save money.

EVs need routine maintenance. Brakes, tires, alignment, etc. It doesn’t seem that different to me.

If you don’t think taking the entire internal combustion engine out of a car has no impact on maintenance and repair costs of the car then I don’t know what to say to you.

What an EV does:
- eliminates cheap oil changes
- replaces that with a deteriorating enormous battery, costing $10k-20k to replace within the vehicle lifespan

What an improvement!

.

This is not a thing. Teslas are 10-12 years old now and there is no huge wave of battery replacements that is occurring.

And if you’ve never spent any money on engine repair or maintenance in 10-12 years then you’ve either lying or incredibly lucky and I can’t wait til your timing belt gives out.

I have read stories of 10 year old Teslas that were scrapped rather than spend the $20k to replace the battery because the car was not worth that much anymore. This is absolutely happening.

Any decent vehicle will not have a timing belt give out or require major repairs.

Oh the “I read somewhere” anecdata— super believeable (esp when paired with the assertion that “no decent vehicle” will ever require timing belt replacement, which is obviously untrue).

Meanwhile here is Tesla reporting that at 200k miles their batteries have lost 12% of range.

https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are confidently stating a lot of anti-EV “facts” and “math” that clearly don’t have a f’ing clue.

Hybrids are probably the better solution for most people until charging infrastructure improves and EV production becomes less damaging for the environment.

Or hybrids are worse than EVs because you have all the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE without the driving fun of an EV.

How much are you spending on maintenance and repair? Serious question because my ICE requires a perhaps $150-300 / year unless new brakes or tires are needed.

An EV is zero routine maintenance and much less concern about something mechanical going wrong.

I mean yes, maybe it’s reasonable to get a hybrid if you take a couple long road trips a year bit maybe it’s also reasonable to consider that buying a hybrid is costing you hundreds of dollars in maintenance and fuel costs just to avoid an extra 20 mins at a rest stop on the way. Heck even if you rented for those trips you’d probably save money.

EVs need routine maintenance. Brakes, tires, alignment, etc. It doesn’t seem that different to me.

If you don’t think taking the entire internal combustion engine out of a car has no impact on maintenance and repair costs of the car then I don’t know what to say to you.

What an EV does:
- eliminates cheap oil changes
- replaces that with a deteriorating enormous battery, costing $10k-20k to replace within the vehicle lifespan

What an improvement!

.

This is not a thing. Teslas are 10-12 years old now and there is no huge wave of battery replacements that is occurring.

And if you’ve never spent any money on engine repair or maintenance in 10-12 years then you’ve either lying or incredibly lucky and I can’t wait til your timing belt gives out.

I have read stories of 10 year old Teslas that were scrapped rather than spend the $20k to replace the battery because the car was not worth that much anymore. This is absolutely happening.

Any decent vehicle will not have a timing belt give out or require major repairs.

Oh the “I read somewhere” anecdata— super believeable (esp when paired with the assertion that “no decent vehicle” will ever require timing belt replacement, which is obviously untrue).

Meanwhile here is Tesla reporting that at 200k miles their batteries have lost 12% of range.

https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/

Tesla also sells full self driving. Do you believe everything they say? Range decline by 200,000 miles makes these vehicles practically unusable without a new battery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are confidently stating a lot of anti-EV “facts” and “math” that clearly don’t have a f’ing clue.

Hybrids are probably the better solution for most people until charging infrastructure improves and EV production becomes less damaging for the environment.

Or hybrids are worse than EVs because you have all the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE without the driving fun of an EV.

How much are you spending on maintenance and repair? Serious question because my ICE requires a perhaps $150-300 / year unless new brakes or tires are needed.

An EV is zero routine maintenance and much less concern about something mechanical going wrong.

I mean yes, maybe it’s reasonable to get a hybrid if you take a couple long road trips a year bit maybe it’s also reasonable to consider that buying a hybrid is costing you hundreds of dollars in maintenance and fuel costs just to avoid an extra 20 mins at a rest stop on the way. Heck even if you rented for those trips you’d probably save money.

EVs need routine maintenance. Brakes, tires, alignment, etc. It doesn’t seem that different to me.

If you don’t think taking the entire internal combustion engine out of a car has no impact on maintenance and repair costs of the car then I don’t know what to say to you.

What an EV does:
- eliminates cheap oil changes
- replaces that with a deteriorating enormous battery, costing $10k-20k to replace within the vehicle lifespan

What an improvement!

.

This is not a thing. Teslas are 10-12 years old now and there is no huge wave of battery replacements that is occurring.

And if you’ve never spent any money on engine repair or maintenance in 10-12 years then you’ve either lying or incredibly lucky and I can’t wait til your timing belt gives out.

I have read stories of 10 year old Teslas that were scrapped rather than spend the $20k to replace the battery because the car was not worth that much anymore. This is absolutely happening.

Any decent vehicle will not have a timing belt give out or require major repairs.

Oh the “I read somewhere” anecdata— super believeable (esp when paired with the assertion that “no decent vehicle” will ever require timing belt replacement, which is obviously untrue).

Meanwhile here is Tesla reporting that at 200k miles their batteries have lost 12% of range.

https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/

Tesla also sells full self driving. Do you believe everything they say? Range decline by 200,000 miles makes these vehicles practically unusable without a new battery.

Virtually every claim by Tesla is a gross exaggeration or a lie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of people who are confidently stating a lot of anti-EV “facts” and “math” that clearly don’t have a f’ing clue.

Hybrids are probably the better solution for most people until charging infrastructure improves and EV production becomes less damaging for the environment.

Or hybrids are worse than EVs because you have all the maintenance and repair costs of an ICE without the driving fun of an EV.

How much are you spending on maintenance and repair? Serious question because my ICE requires a perhaps $150-300 / year unless new brakes or tires are needed.

An EV is zero routine maintenance and much less concern about something mechanical going wrong.

I mean yes, maybe it’s reasonable to get a hybrid if you take a couple long road trips a year bit maybe it’s also reasonable to consider that buying a hybrid is costing you hundreds of dollars in maintenance and fuel costs just to avoid an extra 20 mins at a rest stop on the way. Heck even if you rented for those trips you’d probably save money.

EVs need routine maintenance. Brakes, tires, alignment, etc. It doesn’t seem that different to me.

If you don’t think taking the entire internal combustion engine out of a car has no impact on maintenance and repair costs of the car then I don’t know what to say to you.

What an EV does:
- eliminates cheap oil changes
- replaces that with a deteriorating enormous battery, costing $10k-20k to replace within the vehicle lifespan

What an improvement!

.

This is not a thing. Teslas are 10-12 years old now and there is no huge wave of battery replacements that is occurring.

And if you’ve never spent any money on engine repair or maintenance in 10-12 years then you’ve either lying or incredibly lucky and I can’t wait til your timing belt gives out.

I have read stories of 10 year old Teslas that were scrapped rather than spend the $20k to replace the battery because the car was not worth that much anymore. This is absolutely happening.

Any decent vehicle will not have a timing belt give out or require major repairs.

Oh the “I read somewhere” anecdata— super believeable (esp when paired with the assertion that “no decent vehicle” will ever require timing belt replacement, which is obviously untrue).

Meanwhile here is Tesla reporting that at 200k miles their batteries have lost 12% of range.

https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/

Tesla also sells full self driving. Do you believe everything they say? Range decline by 200,000 miles makes these vehicles practically unusable without a new battery.

I don’t really trust Tesla but I think that when they put out data it’s more reliable than the random assertion of some poster on anonymous message board because they know the lawyers will get them for misstatements.

If you’d prefer I can link to plenty of Tesla owners who post online about their experience with battery loss at 200 k and not one of them has found it makes the car unusable or needed to investigate a replacement.

[Anonymous]

I’ve got 80,000 miles on a 12-year-old gas car and 18,000 miles on a 3-year-old EV, so I feel pretty confident I’m never going to need to worry too much about how much range the EV loses by 200,000 miles.

There does seem to be a lot of opposition to EVs in this thread that’s based on worst-case scenarios or rare situations rather than real-life use.

[Anonymous]

Heard a news story this weekend where they took a bunch of these questions to experts (academics etc) and all the answers favored EVs.

They said even if you already own an ICE, EVs are so much more efficient that just from an environmental perspective you’d be better off buying a new EV than driving a used ICE (of course they said that probably doesn’t make sense to do for lots of other reasons).

Kind of amazing how successful the petroleum industry has been in spreading FUD about EVs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Heard a news story this weekend where they took a bunch of these questions to experts (academics etc) and all the answers favored EVs.

They said even if you already own an ICE, EVs are so much more efficient that just from an environmental perspective you’d be better off buying a new EV than driving a used ICE (of course they said that probably doesn’t make sense to do for lots of other reasons).

Kind of amazing how successful the petroleum industry has been in spreading FUD about EVs.

Wouldn’t driving a compact ICE/hybrid be better for the environment than an enormous and heavy EV like a rivian?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Heard a news story this weekend where they took a bunch of these questions to experts (academics etc) and all the answers favored EVs.

They said even if you already own an ICE, EVs are so much more efficient that just from an environmental perspective you’d be better off buying a new EV than driving a used ICE (of course they said that probably doesn’t make sense to do for lots of other reasons).

Kind of amazing how successful the petroleum industry has been in spreading FUD about EVs.

Wouldn’t driving a compact ICE/hybrid be better for the environment than an enormous and heavy EV like a rivian?

The news story did say if you have a really big EV the difference narrows so I think it’s very possible that a very efficient compact car could be better for the environment than an enormous EV (they also said there’s some site where you can check by car model but I don’t remember who runs it— maybe MIT?).

But I really doubt that someone who is interested in an enormous EV would also be interested in a compact car so I am not sure what the point of the comparison is.

[Anonymous]

Hybrids burn gasoline and have a lithium ion battery. Amazing posters here somehow think these batteries don’t die, but EV batteries do.
And somehow hybrid batteries are good for the environment but EV batteries are terrible.

There are maybe 1-3 hybrids that come close to the cost savings of EV. And many of them go for above MSRP. I bought a Volvo fully electric car for less than a similarly aged Prius with the same miles would have cost me at the same time. The Prius gas mileage was the only one that came close to savings, but it was still off by about 30% (which would be worth it for a cheaper car but why pay more upfront and then pay more for energy??)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most energy- and cost-efficient car you can buy is likely the new Prius, or the Prius Prime.

(The Prius Prime you can plug into a normal outlet, get 30 miles or so of all-electric range, and if you go farther than that, the gasoline engine kicks in and it becomes a regular hybrid.)

As someone who owns the new Prius Prime, yes.

I have visited a gas station just a few times since getting it last summer. Weather depending, I have 49 miles on a charge. 95% of the time its an EV.

The premium you paid for the Prius Prime compared to just the regular Prius hybrid will take you about 8 years to break even.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't know, but it sure seems to, though it isn't why we got one. We also have solar, so that lowers the cost of home charging. I say it seems to because the only costs are purchase price and electricity, which is pennies whereas filling the gas tank is $50-$100 2-3 times per month, and gas doesn't last as long. We rarely need to fully charge the EV, and rarely drop below 40% -- usually its around 70%, and we keep it at the recommended 80% expect for longer trips.

The difference in time (and money) spent on "car stuff" is something we hadn't anticipated making a difference to us, but the EV to hybrid car ownership experience for us is like the difference between a native plant in the right place compared to an exotic, fussy, non-native in a less than ideal spot - so much more work for the hybrid. Once we got used to the EV, the time spent on little things for the hybrid, like getting gas, oil changes, inspections, maintenance issues, became extra annoying simply because we never have to do it for the EV. So now we fuss over who has to deal with the "primitive vehicle," lol.

You have solar. That wasn’t free and I’m sure you overpaid. So in other words you paid for all your electricity years in advance. Need to factor that into the costs of charging your EV.

Why are you so sure they over paid?

I’m looking at a solar system now that will be out of pocket about 40k and save me between 300 and 350 on my electric bill per month. This leads to about a 10% return on my cash investment, double what a savings account is paying right now.

I’m not sure I’ll pull the trigger, but I am keen to understand why solar is, by default, over priced?

It's similar to how most people who buy cars think they got a good deal. Most haven't but the salespeople do their jobs well in making you think you got a good deal. Solar panels are no different. IF you install your panels yourself then you have better chance of actually getting a good deal. Most of the profit margin is on the installation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know, but it sure seems to, though it isn't why we got one. We also have solar, so that lowers the cost of home charging. I say it seems to because the only costs are purchase price and electricity, which is pennies whereas filling the gas tank is $50-$100 2-3 times per month, and gas doesn't last as long. We rarely need to fully charge the EV, and rarely drop below 40% -- usually its around 70%, and we keep it at the recommended 80% expect for longer trips.

The difference in time (and money) spent on "car stuff" is something we hadn't anticipated making a difference to us, but the EV to hybrid car ownership experience for us is like the difference between a native plant in the right place compared to an exotic, fussy, non-native in a less than ideal spot - so much more work for the hybrid. Once we got used to the EV, the time spent on little things for the hybrid, like getting gas, oil changes, inspections, maintenance issues, became extra annoying simply because we never have to do it for the EV. So now we fuss over who has to deal with the "primitive vehicle," lol.

You have solar. That wasn’t free and I’m sure you overpaid. So in other words you paid for all your electricity years in advance. Need to factor that into the costs of charging your EV.

Why are you so sure they over paid?

I’m looking at a solar system now that will be out of pocket about 40k and save me between 300 and 350 on my electric bill per month. This leads to about a 10% return on my cash investment, double what a savings account is paying right now.

I’m not sure I’ll pull the trigger, but I am keen to understand why solar is, by default, over priced?

It's similar to how most people who buy cars think they got a good deal. Most haven't but the salespeople do their jobs well in making you think you got a good deal. Solar panels are no different. IF you install your panels yourself then you have better chance of actually getting a good deal. Most of the profit margin is on the installation.

Yes, this is true, solar panels are commodities now. But I suspect most people here are neither licensed nor capable of installing solar panels on their roofs on their own (it involves not just working on the roof but also pretty complicated electrical work, or at least more complicated than, say, swapping a light fixture). So declaring that any solar installation is overpriced unless you DIY it is basically just saying you think solar isn't worth installing.

In D.C., at least, the SREC market makes it likely you'll fully recoup your costs within four or five years, though, and since I hit breakeven, I'm still selling SRECs that come to about 20 to 25 percent per year of my out-of-pocked install costs (thanks to generous federal tax credits). That means I'm now making money on the solar panels -- and that's not counting the significant savings I get each month from generating most of the electricity I use. Maybe we just have a different definition of "overpriced."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:EVs are largely a scam. Compared to a hybrid, an EV is worse for the environment (from pollution during battery production and reduced vehicle lifespan even with battery replacements) and costs more money (vehicle price, insurance premiums, cost of electricity, rapid depreciation, etc)

None of this is actually true.

All of it is true. In some areas of the country, depending on gas prices and home electricity prices, charging is more expensive than gas. An ICE vehicle will last 2-3x as long as an EV because replacing the battery on an older EV costs more than the vehicle is worth.

Charging to full is not even close to more expensive than a full tank of gas. In fact, filling my gas tank is 10x more expensive than the rare time I had to charge to full at a rest stop. The one time we did that we stared that number in utter disbelief that anyone would buy a gas car again. But in reality, we programed the car to charge at home in off peak night hours or when our solar is overproducing.

Look at what percentage of new car purchases are EV in the US and then you can suspend your disbelief. It has never broken 10%. Most people wouldn’t consider them a replacement for a gas/hybrid vehicle.

If only the world was as small as the us. Except… it’s not. Over 80% of new cars sold in Norway are ev’s. China will be at 20% by 2025. The us is in deep s&$t if it does not keep up.

And most people did not think a car would be replacement for a horse and cart in the early 1900’s. Enjoy your horse and buggy grandma.

Government subsidies and charging infrastructure vary across the world. You speak like a child. Why exactly is the US in trouble? Because less than 10% of new vehicles sold here are EVs?

You speak like a person unversed in global competition and security. Yes. We are in trouble if we don’t keep up in the EV industry

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-new-rules-to-keep-china-out-ev-market-2023-12

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/29/the-us-is-falling-further-behind-china-and-europe-in-ev-production.html

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/how-china-is-churning-out-evs-faster-than-everyone-else-df316c71

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/27/opinion/gm-ford-electric-vehicles.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/29/us-says-to-investigate-national-security-data-risks-from-chinese-vehicles.html

[Anonymous]

Depends on where you live. Major city with chargers and you have an at home charger? Yes. If not no it doesn’t and makes life more stressful. I just did a huge road trip that took me through Texas which is the US home of Tesla and outside of Austin and Houston I didn’t see any charging centers. It would have been a pain to do this trip had I had a Tesla.