How are selective colleges looking at DE classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

It makes perfect sense. Of course an AO will respect the particular case you describe, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to respect a kid who takes US History at some random community college because the APUSH teacher in his high school is a harsh grader. Rule of thumb, only use DE for courses your high school doesn’t offer.

OP. My question is about taking a class that isn’t offered. It’s not about gaming the system and avoiding APs, which I know some students do. My kid wants to broaden their horizons and take a history class not offered. But it comes with extra workload, and I’m wondering if this is something that’s even looked favorably by AOs? I’m trying to advise him, as he thinks about next semester .

You may not want to out the specifics but would be curious about the nature of the class. My kid is a history major at ND. He loves it, btw. He took advanced history classes at his HS and they had a history journal for the school where he “published” his main history paper. He did not take any history classes at community college. His profile was much more the varsity captain, 3-sport athlete, academic, art, citizenship and sports awards at his high school (some regional but nothing further or national). Advanced Stem classes for a humanities kid. Basically, not “pointy” at all and the opposite of what you always hear works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

Of course UVA thinks the community college classes are likely to be inferior, because they likely are.

The community college instructor might be a smart, dedicated person who gives a bright student a lot of nurturing and one-on-one support. The class might be a wonderful experience for that student.

But of course being a student with 1550 on the SATs, in a class where the average score is 900, is a lot different and, in some important ways, worse, than being in a brutal, sink-or-swim class, with an average student SAT score of 1500, with a UVa. professor who’s the middle of titanic battles over the future of a major line of research.

The bright community college student learned the class content.

The UVa. student learned the content and how to swim with sharks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Really only math above the AP sequence. Or more courses from students from schools with limited advanced offerings across the board. But DE doesn't generally confer any advantages over AP--and may be sometimes perceived as less rigorous. Many kids take them to get the college credit and save money.

OP here. Again, my question is NOT whether to take a class in place of an AP class. My kid is looking to take a DE class *in addition* to a typical slate of honors/AP classes. It’s a history class that’s not offered…think Latin American history, along those lines.

Many peers in his school do this, and there is some concern from him that if he doesn’t he won’t be as competitive.

Does anyone know if AO from selective colleges want to see DE classes (taken at a community college)? I have heard on a podcast it can show commitment/interest in a field of subject.

If your son is taking the class because he’s genuinely interested in the subject, or he wants to major in or work in a field related to the class, that’s good.

If he’d only be taking the class to please admissions officers, and he’s not planning to major in anything related to history, he might be better off using the time and energy to do something that interests him.

I think admissions officers want to see bright , energetic students who are trying to do interesting things, not students trying to live to please admissions officers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

Of course UVA thinks the community college classes are likely to be inferior, because they likely are.

The community college instructor might be a smart, dedicated person who gives a bright student a lot of nurturing and one-on-one support. The class might be a wonderful experience for that student.

But of course being a student with 1550 on the SATs, in a class where the average score is 900, is a lot different and, in some important ways, worse, than being in a brutal, sink-or-swim class, with an average student SAT score of 1500, with a UVa. professor who’s the middle of titanic battles over the future of a major line of research.

The bright community college student learned the class content.

The UVa. student learned the content and how to swim with sharks.

I’ve taught at NOVA and have had many, many UVA students who take the courses and transfer them over. Did they just learn the content or were the swimming with sharks?

You’re embarrassing yourself.