How are selective colleges looking at DE classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

The question is about how selective colleges look at DE classes for admissions--that is not a question about transfer students.
And it's not like you can take any old community college class and get into UVA--you have to take a specific sequence and get the correct grade in each course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

Yet some colleges accept AP, which is also substandard.

[Anonymous]

For what it’s worth, my DS took a lot of DE classes his senior year at FCPS. Some classes were in person at a FCPS HS, taught by a HS teacher. Think multivariable and linear algebra. I believe credit was through GMU. He also took online DE classes through Nova I believe for English and Govt. He was just tired of the slog of AP classes. It was a bit of a struggle in our home and we were worried how it would look to colleges. He said if he didn’t do DE he was doing Honors classes then instead. This was a kid with straight As all 3 previous years.

DS was admitted to top universities and programs, including Ivy. In the end, it probably didn’t make much difference between AP vs DE at least for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Really only math above the AP sequence. Or more courses from students from schools with limited advanced offerings across the board. But DE doesn't generally confer any advantages over AP--and may be sometimes perceived as less rigorous. Many kids take them to get the college credit and save money.

OP here. Again, my question is NOT whether to take a class in place of an AP class. My kid is looking to take a DE class *in addition* to a typical slate of honors/AP classes. It’s a history class that’s not offered…think Latin American history, along those lines.

Many peers in his school do this, and there is some concern from him that if he doesn’t he won’t be as competitive.

Does anyone know if AO from selective colleges want to see DE classes (taken at a community college)? I have heard on a podcast it can show commitment/interest in a field of subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

This is nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Really only math above the AP sequence. Or more courses from students from schools with limited advanced offerings across the board. But DE doesn't generally confer any advantages over AP--and may be sometimes perceived as less rigorous. Many kids take them to get the college credit and save money.

OP here. Again, my question is NOT whether to take a class in place of an AP class. My kid is looking to take a DE class *in addition* to a typical slate of honors/AP classes. It’s a history class that’s not offered…think Latin American history, along those lines.

Many peers in his school do this, and there is some concern from him that if he doesn’t he won’t be as competitive.

Does anyone know if AO from selective colleges want to see DE classes (taken at a community college)? I have heard on a podcast it can show commitment/interest in a field of subject.

It shows an interest in the major. It isn't an application quality booster. AOs know the games people play to game admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

Colleges want you to pay them to take that course; its also why they are stingy with AP credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

The question is about how selective colleges look at DE classes for admissions--that is not a question about transfer students.
And it's not like you can take any old community college class and get into UVA--you have to take a specific sequence and get the correct grade in each course.

And then that question led into whether DE classes are considered rigorous. You said community college classes are considered remedial. I completely disagree. You have zero proof other than your guess. My proof is that VA colleges accept many of these credits and what Yale said. But, you know best...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

Colleges want you to pay them to take that course; its also why they are stingy with AP credit.

The OP specifically asked whether "applications would look weaker without it" -- so this is not about whether the colleges give credit or not but whether having them on the transcript makes the application stronger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For what it’s worth, my DS took a lot of DE classes his senior year at FCPS. Some classes were in person at a FCPS HS, taught by a HS teacher. Think multivariable and linear algebra. I believe credit was through GMU. He also took online DE classes through Nova I believe for English and Govt. He was just tired of the slog of AP classes. It was a bit of a struggle in our home and we were worried how it would look to colleges. He said if he didn’t do DE he was doing Honors classes then instead. This was a kid with straight As all 3 previous years.

DS was admitted to top universities and programs, including Ivy. In the end, it probably didn’t make much difference between AP vs DE at least for him.

English is the only one I think would get a ding. But if you have a kid who is taking Multivariable and Linear Algebra and getting As in HS, I think they have other unusual and varied strengths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it’s worth, my DS took a lot of DE classes his senior year at FCPS. Some classes were in person at a FCPS HS, taught by a HS teacher. Think multivariable and linear algebra. I believe credit was through GMU. He also took online DE classes through Nova I believe for English and Govt. He was just tired of the slog of AP classes. It was a bit of a struggle in our home and we were worried how it would look to colleges. He said if he didn’t do DE he was doing Honors classes then instead. This was a kid with straight As all 3 previous years.

DS was admitted to top universities and programs, including Ivy. In the end, it probably didn’t make much difference between AP vs DE at least for him.

English is the only one I think would get a ding. But if you have a kid who is taking Multivariable and Linear Algebra and getting As in HS, I think they have other unusual and varied strengths.

NP: notice it’s her thoughts. Feel free to ignore. Zero evidence of this. At college sessions, AO’s mention DE classes all the time when reeling off what constitutes rigor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. A student could have all Northern VA Comm College classes for 2 years and get a guaranteed ticket into UVA. Does UVA think those classes are inferior?

Please, stop.

The question is about how selective colleges look at DE classes for admissions--that is not a question about transfer students.
And it's not like you can take any old community college class and get into UVA--you have to take a specific sequence and get the correct grade in each course.

And then that question led into whether DE classes are considered rigorous. You said community college classes are considered remedial. I completely disagree. You have zero proof other than your guess. My proof is that VA colleges accept many of these credits and what Yale said. But, you know best...

Okay--go read the Jeffrey Selingo book--an expert on this topic--and see how he talks about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it’s worth, my DS took a lot of DE classes his senior year at FCPS. Some classes were in person at a FCPS HS, taught by a HS teacher. Think multivariable and linear algebra. I believe credit was through GMU. He also took online DE classes through Nova I believe for English and Govt. He was just tired of the slog of AP classes. It was a bit of a struggle in our home and we were worried how it would look to colleges. He said if he didn’t do DE he was doing Honors classes then instead. This was a kid with straight As all 3 previous years.

DS was admitted to top universities and programs, including Ivy. In the end, it probably didn’t make much difference between AP vs DE at least for him.

English is the only one I think would get a ding. But if you have a kid who is taking Multivariable and Linear Algebra and getting As in HS, I think they have other unusual and varied strengths.

NP: notice it’s her thoughts. Feel free to ignore. Zero evidence of this. At college sessions, AO’s mention DE classes all the time when reeling off what constitutes rigor.

Jeffrey Selingo who analyzes college admissions makes this claim. It's also what I've heard from AOs when asking on tours. DE for courses beyond what you can take in hs are a plus, DE for core courses that have advanced equivalents in hs like English are not. You are of course free to ignore what I or anyone else has to say on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For what it’s worth, my DS took a lot of DE classes his senior year at FCPS. Some classes were in person at a FCPS HS, taught by a HS teacher. Think multivariable and linear algebra. I believe credit was through GMU. He also took online DE classes through Nova I believe for English and Govt. He was just tired of the slog of AP classes. It was a bit of a struggle in our home and we were worried how it would look to colleges. He said if he didn’t do DE he was doing Honors classes then instead. This was a kid with straight As all 3 previous years.

DS was admitted to top universities and programs, including Ivy. In the end, it probably didn’t make much difference between AP vs DE at least for him.

English is the only one I think would get a ding. But if you have a kid who is taking Multivariable and Linear Algebra and getting As in HS, I think they have other unusual and varied strengths.

NP: notice it’s her thoughts. Feel free to ignore. Zero evidence of this. At college sessions, AO’s mention DE classes all the time when reeling off what constitutes rigor.

Jeffrey Selingo who analyzes college admissions makes this claim. It's also what I've heard from AOs when asking on tours. DE for courses beyond what you can take in hs are a plus, DE for core courses that have advanced equivalents in hs like English are not. You are of course free to ignore what I or anyone else has to say on this forum.

I don't see this claim from him - do you have a link? I am talking about classes taught in the college, not in the high school. FWIW, I'd be very surprised he's making this claim. Yale says the exact opposite:
YALE:
https://admissions.yale.edu/faq/applying-yale-college
How does Yale use AP, IB, A-Levels, and Dual Enrollment courses completed in high school?
Admissions officers are familiar with various types of advanced coursework, including AP, IB, A-Levels, Dual Enrollment, and others, but have no preference for one advanced curriculum over another. We also understand that the availability of advanced coursework varies significantly from school to school. For matriculating students, top scores on AP or IB exams can, in some cases, be used for the purposes of course placement or acceleration (i.e. completing the requirements for an undergraduate degree in fewer than 8 semesters). Details of the Yale College policies on acceleration are available in the Yale College Programs of Study.