How are selective colleges looking at DE classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

This clearly depends in the school district. All DCPS DE classes are actually taken at a participating college with enrolled college students. Yes, there are some offered by UDC, but most of the kids that I know taking DE are taking those classes at GW or Georgetown.

The kids literally get "accepted" by the college (there is a very brief application one fills out...nothing like the real application), get a student ID and then register for the college class through the college system. This process is no different than enrolled college students use to select their own classes.

Do you mind sharing a little more info about the students taking classes at Georgetown? E.g., what high school they came from (public or private) or what courses? We were told that Georgetown does not allow high school students to take classes (except for summer.) Thanks!

It is a special program for DCPS students (i.e., public). I don't know if any DC private schools have their own relationship with Georgetown, but they cannot participate in the DCPS program.

The overall course availability is limited to what Georgetown is willing to offer the HS students to enroll. I think they offer like 20 classes, with several Post-BC Calc options. You need to have a high GPA, get a counselor recommendation and "apply" to the school...but again, this is a very short 10 minute application and I would be shocked if anyone is ever rejected (since it is generally a fairly small overall pool of students). GW has a more extensive selection of maybe 50 classes.

Again, you enroll in actual Georgetown classes and take the class alongside current Georgetown students. This is not a special class of only HS students.

It's annoying that many highly selective colleges will not give you credit for the class (though I imagine Georgetown would if you matriculate there), even though if you took that exact same class as a Georgetown student and transferred, they would accept the credit.

Thanks for clarifying. We are not DCPS, so I guess our counselor wasn't wrong. It sounds like a great program!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

[Anonymous]

Yale has said they like to see AP or DE classes.

- DE is a fine way to say it.

- provided taken at a college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

This clearly depends in the school district. All DCPS DE classes are actually taken at a participating college with enrolled college students. Yes, there are some offered by UDC, but most of the kids that I know taking DE are taking those classes at GW or Georgetown.

The kids literally get "accepted" by the college (there is a very brief application one fills out...nothing like the real application), get a student ID and then register for the college class through the college system. This process is no different than enrolled college students use to select their own classes.

Do you mind sharing a little more info about the students taking classes at Georgetown? E.g., what high school they came from (public or private) or what courses? We were told that Georgetown does not allow high school students to take classes (except for summer.) Thanks!

It is a special program for DCPS students (i.e., public). I don't know if any DC private schools have their own relationship with Georgetown, but they cannot participate in the DCPS program.

The overall course availability is limited to what Georgetown is willing to offer the HS students to enroll. I think they offer like 20 classes, with several Post-BC Calc options. You need to have a high GPA, get a counselor recommendation and "apply" to the school...but again, this is a very short 10 minute application and I would be shocked if anyone is ever rejected (since it is generally a fairly small overall pool of students). GW has a more extensive selection of maybe 50 classes.

Again, you enroll in actual Georgetown classes and take the class alongside current Georgetown students. This is not a special class of only HS students.

It's annoying that many highly selective colleges will not give you credit for the class (though I imagine Georgetown would if you matriculate there), even though if you took that exact same class as a Georgetown student and transferred, they would accept the credit.

Thanks for clarifying. We are not DCPS, so I guess our counselor wasn't wrong. It sounds like a great program!

I understand MoCo has a program with Montgomery County CC where you can essentially become a full-time MCCC student as a Jr in HS and take a full slate of classes. These credits will transfer to UMD and other 4-year MD schools. I know a couple of kids from Blair that have taken this option...they especially love that they get the 1-month college break over the XMas holidays.

It is possible this is a Blair-specific program vs. all of MoCo.

[Anonymous]

Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

I believe there are some DE programs where you are taught by a college professor, but your class is all HS students. Also, there are some high schools that offer post-AP BC Calc directly at the high school. Perhaps the belief is this college professor will not be as demanding of the HS students as they would for their normal college students.

It is not the same as the DCPS DE program where you enroll in the actual college class alongside FT students at that college. The professor does not even know you are in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

Everyone is saying that the advanced math courses are the exception. They look rigorous to admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

The point is selective colleges would rather the student take those at their university instead of a substandard option in HS. They aren’t impressed.

I still don't get why these (particular ones I listed) are substandard. It is what students in GW take. Now, if you are arguing that the same classes in, say, Rice are better, I am not sure of that. It is the same material -- multivariable calculus hasn't changed in 100 odd years (Stokes' theorem, div grad curl and all that...)

Everyone is saying that the advanced math courses are the exception. They look rigorous to admissions.

Yale did not say this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a part of Jeff Selingo's book where he discusses the AOs at selective schools seeing DE as less rigorous as AP.

Thanks for bringing this up. I need to reread that book.

That makes no sense. Multivariable calculus/Linear Algebra/Intro to Math Reasoning (at GW)/Differential Equations (Howard) are genuine college courses. Why would they be seen as less rigorous? These are all available for Dual Enrollment/Dual Credit at DCPS.

It makes perfect sense. Of course an AO will respect the particular case you describe, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to respect a kid who takes US History at some random community college because the APUSH teacher in his high school is a harsh grader. Rule of thumb, only use DE for courses your high school doesn’t offer.

OP. My question is about taking a class that isn’t offered. It’s not about gaming the system and avoiding APs, which I know some students do. My kid wants to broaden their horizons and take a history class not offered. But it comes with extra workload, and I’m wondering if this is something that’s even looked favorably by AOs? I’m trying to advise him, as he thinks about next semester .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Are they college classes taught at a college by a college professor or DE classes taught thru the HS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Are they college classes taught at a college by a college professor or DE classes taught thru the HS?

OP. Community college class taught by regular professor with community college students, but in an online format.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Are they college classes taught at a college by a college professor or DE classes taught thru the HS?

OP. Community college class taught by regular professor with community college students, but in an online format.

Are there AP courses offered in the same area as your school? I would go with them over DE for admissions purposes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Advanced math and science at schools like GT or even GMU is good.

History at CC is not.

So AO’s only look for STEM students to take DE classes? So many students do this at my kid’s high school, there is some pressure to do it so their transcript looks competitive compared to classmates.

Really only math above the AP sequence. Or more courses from students from schools with limited advanced offerings across the board. But DE doesn't generally confer any advantages over AP--and may be sometimes perceived as less rigorous. Many kids take them to get the college credit and save money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DE is generally regarded as a way to inflate HS grades. They aren’t as hard or rigorous as AP classes/curriculum but they get the bump in GPA. This is because they are still taught by HS teachers (as are the AP courses but the AP courses follow a curriculum and have the accountability and measure of an exam). This is how my kids who took AP courses explained it to me. The “gen Ed” track kids boost their GPAs this way but generally lacked rigor in their transcript.

There are exceptions, I suppose, for novelty classes. But most of the “advanced” courses the selective university will want students to take from them anyway and won’t be impressed by someone taking a substandard offering in HS.

I find opinions like this obnoxious. First of all, my junior has several AP classes already. DC took DE English Composition this year instead of AP (whatever the language art equivalent is). And it is an excellent class. DC has done more writing in a semester than has been done the entirety of the 10 years in FCPS. Getting good -and timely- feedback. And it will only benefit DC in college so, yes, it is absolutely worth the +1 bump.

I have been way less impressed with DC's AP classes which are rigid, unimaginative, and fairly high level reviews of the subject matters. Not all of the teachers should be teaching AP classes, frankly, whereas the DE teacher teaches at NOVA regularly. And does it well.

I realize there is this AP arms race around here and anyone who doesn't take as many as offered as viewed as an inferior student. But that is wrong. And unfair.

What you think of as an "excellent" class may not impress the college admissions folks--especially a community college level English composition class which often is viewed as remedial instruction. And, yes, consistent writing with feedback is a hallmark of those kinds of classes--it's how colleges get kids up to writing speed if they haven't done that already. The class size and professor schedules are geared to make that work far more than a K-12 settings. But the fact is that the academic cohort is often lower at a community college than in the AP program at a high school and the grades reflect that. If your kid hasn't done AP in language arts, this will be looked at as dodging harder content/competition rather than more advanced content. But it sounds like you've gotten what the actual value of the course is -- more practice writing and more feedback on writing.

It is an excellent class regardless of what some AO thinks. And if that is the difference in admissions, so be it. But my kid made a more thoughtful decision as to what DC wanted and would be a benefit than just engaging in the AP race. And frankly, many kids in the class are high performing kids who made the same decision. Mine is going a STEM path so there was no utility, other than to appease some AO, to taking the AP Lang class.

You can put it down all you want. So can the AO reps. But that says more about you all than it does the kids who take DE or the classes themselves.