How to handle this difficult situation with a friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The student statement that the faculty letter “paraphrases” was written long before any Israeli response to Oct 7 and endorses the terrorists as legitimate actors. That is equivalent to saying that 9/11 was a legitimate response to decades of the US interfering in mid-east politics. No, it was terrorism. This isn’t about being Islamophobic, that is a canard.
I have zero issues with anyone saying that people should be allowed to say what they want. But they also have to understand that actions and words have consequences and no one who publicly signed a letter is being “doxxed”, they already did that to themselves.

Again, NO ONE has said 10/7 was a "legitimate" action -- not the students, not the faculty.

The students say it is the action of an oppressed people denied basic rights and freedom AND that as an action in an ongoing conflict, it violates moral principles that bar the targeting of civilians. They are contextualizing the Hamas attack within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which they believe is important because they support the cause of Palestinians (some of them being Palestinian), but they are not defending the attack.

The faculty defend the right of the students to say this, and argue that it is valuable to hear these voices because the conflict in question is complex and a college environment should encourage open discussion of complex issues like this.

The people who are angry about these statements, neither of which endorse or defend the Hamas attacks, would like there to be only one opinion on the matter: that 10/7 was a terrorist act for which Israel has a right to retaliate. Obviously people who are concerned about the fate of Palestinians in Gaza are never going to endorse that view. And the fact that since 10/7, Israel has used that event to justify the killing of many Palestinians, should make it abundantly clear why.

Anyway, OP's family shouldn't vacation with the professor.

[Anonymous]

Jeff keeps deleting comments from Palestinians and Arabs explaining the double standard. Why?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff keeps deleting comments from Palestinians and Arabs explaining the double standard. Why?

Not on-topic for this thread. This is thread about how to react to the original poster's friend, not a debate about the Israel-Hamas conflict. You can go to our Political Discussion forum for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP’s position is actually a perfect illustration of what the problem is. She’s confusing another’s position with regard to which she strongly disagrees with anti-Semitism. There’s nothing anti-Semitic in that letter.

+1

I’m actually impressed by an academic at a liberal institution willing to stick their neck out for free speech on campus and calling out the harms of doxxing/cancel culture.

Sounds like OP’s DH is too low brow to understand the point of this letter. The friend is better off not dealing with this family.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff keeps deleting comments from Palestinians and Arabs explaining the double standard. Why?

Not on-topic for this thread. This is thread about how to react to the original poster's friend, not a debate about the Israel-Hamas conflict. You can go to our Political Discussion forum for that.

Fair enough - but I am coming from the perspective here as if someone approached me as OP plans to, I would believe her questioning of my support for Palestinian life, dignity, and safety was a deeply insidious form of islamophobia and that needs to be pointed out that it could be taken as such. OP should be prepared for that type of conversation to happen if she starts it. And she should also prepare for the fact that the professor might ALSO not want anything to do with them after this conversation. Op is approaching it like they are the ones in charge of the friendship and that’s just not the case. Anyway, I’ll stop posting on this thread. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fine, here is the letter that they signed:

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSxEIf0j1H6v3R4549yxfetSBy1ioc6VHyJa3vKfvgyVFX9TAluk_1laTuSBKAyzqjF3hJT9EVw0P7a/pub

Why is DH not equally concerned about the students being attacked for supporting Palestinian human rights?

“It is worth noting that not all of us agree with every one of the claims made in the students’ statement, but we do agree that making such claims cannot and should not be considered anti-Semitic. Their merits are being debated by governmental and non-governmental agencies at the highest level, and constitute a terrain of completely legitimate political and legal debate.

We are appalled that trucks broadcasting students’ names and images are circling the campus, identifying them individually as “Columbia’s Leading Anti-Semites”, and that some students have had offers of employment withdrawn by employers that sought to punish them for signing the student statement, or for being merely affiliated with student groups associated with the statement. In the absence of university action, students and faculty have undertaken the burden of blocking the images and identifying information broadcast on the doxxing trucks. It is worth noting that most of the students targeted by this doxing campaign are Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, or South Asian.”

NP - So free speech is ok for some but not all and there should be no consequences for behavior? The student letter and the faculty letter both state that the actions of Hamas on October 7 were a legitimate military action. They were not and to say that is to condone terrorism and yes it is antisemitic.

Imagine if this was white students who said something similar about what happened during the BLM protests in 2020? Every one of those students would’ve been facing worse consequences than a “doxxing truck”.

They clearly stated that staff don’t agree with all the student statements but we’re defending their rights to express their opinions …

I wouldn't be able to resist asking that friend about any other instances in the last three years where she publicly voiced her free speech concerns regarding doxxing, employment terminations, etc., especially for people whose views she does not agree with. If she is an equal opportunity free speech absolutust (and I know some), I would be able to continue the friendship, but I think I know the answer to that question.

You are acting as if what has been going on recently is a common occurrence. It isn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP’s position is actually a perfect illustration of what the problem is. She’s confusing another’s position with regard to which she strongly disagrees with anti-Semitism. There’s nothing anti-Semitic in that letter.

+1

I’m actually impressed by an academic at a liberal institution willing to stick their neck out for free speech on campus and calling out the harms of doxxing/cancel culture.

Sounds like OP’s DH is too low brow to understand the point of this letter. The friend is better off not dealing with this family.

Low brow? Hahaha. Not at all. OP’s husband is totally right here. Their professor friend sounds like an apologist who consistently supports liberal matters and feels conflicted because the Palestinians are sympathetic, but doesn’t have the knowledge and intelligence to recognize that Hamas is a murderous terrorist regime that cares more about killing Israelis and decimating Israel than the health and safety of its own citizens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No advice but I’m in the same boat. My SO’s best friend keeps posting telling Jews to “stop centering your trauma” and calling the victims of the Nova music festival legitimate targets because they are “settlers”. Sharing disinformation saying Hamas didn’t kill babies. I never want to speak to this person again but my SO wants to remain friends. Ugh.

I call bullshit. If not, then you hang out with really ignorant and stupid people I have not heard or read a single person in any media anywhere on the planet suggest that the kids at that musical festival who were slaughtered were legitimate targets. No one at all.

NP. Your personal experience does not equal universal truth, PP. Just because you, individually, don't know anyone who has said this, and you have "not heard or read a single person in any media anywhere on the planet" say this--that does not mean that this sick thinking does not exist. Tragically, it does exist.

Also: How do you have time to see, hear and read all media "anywhere on the planet"? You must be omniscient. Or extremely dramatic. I think the latter is likelier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fine, here is the letter that they signed:

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSxEIf0j1H6v3R4549yxfetSBy1ioc6VHyJa3vKfvgyVFX9TAluk_1laTuSBKAyzqjF3hJT9EVw0P7a/pub

Why is DH not equally concerned about the students being attacked for supporting Palestinian human rights?

“It is worth noting that not all of us agree with every one of the claims made in the students’ statement, but we do agree that making such claims cannot and should not be considered anti-Semitic. Their merits are being debated by governmental and non-governmental agencies at the highest level, and constitute a terrain of completely legitimate political and legal debate.

We are appalled that trucks broadcasting students’ names and images are circling the campus, identifying them individually as “Columbia’s Leading Anti-Semites”, and that some students have had offers of employment withdrawn by employers that sought to punish them for signing the student statement, or for being merely affiliated with student groups associated with the statement. In the absence of university action, students and faculty have undertaken the burden of blocking the images and identifying information broadcast on the doxxing trucks. It is worth noting that most of the students targeted by this doxing campaign are Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, or South Asian.”

NP - So free speech is ok for some but not all and there should be no consequences for behavior? The student letter and the faculty letter both state that the actions of Hamas on October 7 were a legitimate military action. They were not and to say that is to condone terrorism and yes it is antisemitic.

Imagine if this was white students who said something similar about what happened during the BLM protests in 2020? Every one of those students would’ve been facing worse consequences than a “doxxing truck”.

The faculty letter does not state that 10/7 was a "legitimate military action." Here's what it actually says:

"In our view, the student statement aims to recontextualize the events of October 7, 2023, pointing out that military operations and state violence did not begin that day, but rather it represented a military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years. One could regard the events of October 7th as just one salvo in an ongoing war between an occupying state and the people it occupies, or as an occupied people exercising a right to resist violent and illegal occupation, something anticipated by international humanitarian law in the Second Geneva Protocol. In either case armed resistance by an occupied people must conform to the laws of war, which include a prohibition against the intentional targeting of civilians. The statement reflects and endorses this legal framework, including a condemnation of the killing of civilians."

The faculty letter does not endorse the views in the students statement, that 10/7 was a military response. Nor does it further editorialize that it was a legitimate military response. It's just describing what the student statement says. It then further contextualizes this by noting that even if you view the acts on 10/7 as a military action by an occupied people, that would make it an act of war, and any such act of war would have to conform to Geneva conventions, which do not permit the targeting or intentional killing of civilians.

Sure, it's written with a level of academic remove that intentionally obscures what the signatories actually think about the conflict. But the letter isn't actually about what they think of the conflict. It's about whether the students who wrote and signed the student statement should be targeted and doxxed as they have been, and whether their actions can be considered anti-semitic. The letter makes the argument that you cannot view the statement as de facto anti-semitic because the context of the conflict in Israel make the students' position on these events at least arguably true.

It doesn't endorse their statement. It says they should be allowed to make it, and attempt to contextualize their statement.

I understand why it would upset people. I'm not even saying OP shouldn't end her friendship with this professor over it if she feels she needs to. But the letter does not call 10/7 a legitimate military action or anything close to that.

Thank you, PP, for summarizing the letter so well and clarifying that it's about the professors attempting to support student free speech without the professors supporting the content of that speech. But this is a subtlety I fear is utterly lost on this thread already and utterly lost on Americans in general at this point.

[Anonymous]

What's your real desired outcome by having this confrontation you are fantasizing about, OP? Are you actually expecting this educated professor to backpedal on signing that letter in solidarity with dozens of her colleagues? If I were her, I would write you off for having the audacity of pressing me to give you an explanation and hoping that the explanation is enough to salvage the stupid family vacation or your daughter's friendship. You and your husband seem crazy intolerant and I would cut the friendship off. The tunnel vision of insisting that anything but unquestioned support of Israel won't be tolerated is going to harm you, OP. Try and be a bit more objective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP’s position is actually a perfect illustration of what the problem is. She’s confusing another’s position with regard to which she strongly disagrees with anti-Semitism. There’s nothing anti-Semitic in that letter.

+1

I’m actually impressed by an academic at a liberal institution willing to stick their neck out for free speech on campus and calling out the harms of doxxing/cancel culture.

Sounds like OP’s DH is too low brow to understand the point of this letter. The friend is better off not dealing with this family.

Low brow? Hahaha. Not at all. OP’s husband is totally right here. Their professor friend sounds like an apologist who consistently supports liberal matters and feels conflicted because the Palestinians are sympathetic, but doesn’t have the knowledge and intelligence to recognize that Hamas is a murderous terrorist regime that cares more about killing Israelis and decimating Israel than the health and safety of its own citizens.

You need to read the post where a PP summarizes the letter's actual intent -- it does not apologize for Hamas; it criticizes doxxing of students. It's about free speech (however abhorrent that speech may be), not about supporting Hamas. Are you fine with doxxing and the associated potential for targeted violence of students? You'd be fine with someone harming them because they made stupid, even vile, statements? Maybe you would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP’s position is actually a perfect illustration of what the problem is. She’s confusing another’s position with regard to which she strongly disagrees with anti-Semitism. There’s nothing anti-Semitic in that letter.

+1
it is very much what is happening right now

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hate that our nation has become so divisive we can’t entertain the thought of being friends with someone whose views differ from our own. Who says we’re right and they’re wrong? Why are we so stubborn about it and refusing to look at issues from another viewpoint? Where this pigheaded attitude is dragging our country is both sad and horrifying. Smart people surround themselves with all sorts of people, not just yes men.

Agree

I also agree. And of course the bigger danger is that when we are not open to at least look at issues from another viewpoint we are more likely only hearing one viewpoint and everything becomes amplified

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fine, here is the letter that they signed:

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSxEIf0j1H6v3R4549yxfetSBy1ioc6VHyJa3vKfvgyVFX9TAluk_1laTuSBKAyzqjF3hJT9EVw0P7a/pub

Why is DH not equally concerned about the students being attacked for supporting Palestinian human rights?

“It is worth noting that not all of us agree with every one of the claims made in the students’ statement, but we do agree that making such claims cannot and should not be considered anti-Semitic. Their merits are being debated by governmental and non-governmental agencies at the highest level, and constitute a terrain of completely legitimate political and legal debate.

We are appalled that trucks broadcasting students’ names and images are circling the campus, identifying them individually as “Columbia’s Leading Anti-Semites”, and that some students have had offers of employment withdrawn by employers that sought to punish them for signing the student statement, or for being merely affiliated with student groups associated with the statement. In the absence of university action, students and faculty have undertaken the burden of blocking the images and identifying information broadcast on the doxxing trucks. It is worth noting that most of the students targeted by this doxing campaign are Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, or South Asian.”

NP - So free speech is ok for some but not all and there should be no consequences for behavior? The student letter and the faculty letter both state that the actions of Hamas on October 7 were a legitimate military action. They were not and to say that is to condone terrorism and yes it is antisemitic.

Imagine if this was white students who said something similar about what happened during the BLM protests in 2020? Every one of those students would’ve been facing worse consequences than a “doxxing truck”.

They clearly stated that staff don’t agree with all the student statements but we’re defending their rights to express their opinions …

I wouldn't be able to resist asking that friend about any other instances in the last three years where she publicly voiced her free speech concerns regarding doxxing, employment terminations, etc., especially for people whose views she does not agree with. If she is an equal opportunity free speech absolutust (and I know some), I would be able to continue the friendship, but I think I know the answer to that question.

Again it is somewhat amazing to me what imaginative world OP (and you) are attributing to the person who signed this statement. She is a faculty member in the United States during an interval of rampant targeting of free expression on college campuses by right-wing ideologues. I virtually guarantee that she will have 5-10 examples of her taking the position you think you’d “gotcha” her with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fine, here is the letter that they signed:

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vSxEIf0j1H6v3R4549yxfetSBy1ioc6VHyJa3vKfvgyVFX9TAluk_1laTuSBKAyzqjF3hJT9EVw0P7a/pub

Why is DH not equally concerned about the students being attacked for supporting Palestinian human rights?

“It is worth noting that not all of us agree with every one of the claims made in the students’ statement, but we do agree that making such claims cannot and should not be considered anti-Semitic. Their merits are being debated by governmental and non-governmental agencies at the highest level, and constitute a terrain of completely legitimate political and legal debate.

We are appalled that trucks broadcasting students’ names and images are circling the campus, identifying them individually as “Columbia’s Leading Anti-Semites”, and that some students have had offers of employment withdrawn by employers that sought to punish them for signing the student statement, or for being merely affiliated with student groups associated with the statement. In the absence of university action, students and faculty have undertaken the burden of blocking the images and identifying information broadcast on the doxxing trucks. It is worth noting that most of the students targeted by this doxing campaign are Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, or South Asian.”

NP - So free speech is ok for some but not all and there should be no consequences for behavior? The student letter and the faculty letter both state that the actions of Hamas on October 7 were a legitimate military action. They were not and to say that is to condone terrorism and yes it is antisemitic.

Imagine if this was white students who said something similar about what happened during the BLM protests in 2020? Every one of those students would’ve been facing worse consequences than a “doxxing truck”.

They clearly stated that staff don’t agree with all the student statements but we’re defending their rights to express their opinions …

I wouldn't be able to resist asking that friend about any other instances in the last three years where she publicly voiced her free speech concerns regarding doxxing, employment terminations, etc., especially for people whose views she does not agree with. If she is an equal opportunity free speech absolutust (and I know some), I would be able to continue the friendship, but I think I know the answer to that question.

This. Did she have any outspoken thoughts about prospective college students having admission offers revoked due to things they said on snapchat, twitter, or instagram when they were 16, for example?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/02/us/racism-social-media-college-admissions.html