Pre-calc/Trig

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

Yes, I believe he was able to get honors credit in summer school. Needless to say summer school is abbreviated, but he was self motivated and for some people doing only one topic for 8 weeks is good. He was back with a top cohort in the fall, they were just a grade older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If kid takes pre-calc as a senior can they get into a 50-100 school?

Which ranking system?

Definitely if their school doesn’t offer higher math than that. If there was a more challenging option available it would be a little harder I think.

oh please. I went to a Title 1 HS that graduated 100 kids a year in the rural south. And I had access to AP Calc AB. Not 5 people took it. But it was offered. I don’t think a high school that didn’t even offer pre-Calc could maintain accreditation.

yes fairly certain all HS offer pre-calc/trig. But there definately are schools that do not offer calculus---many are rural smaller schools.

OP - your child will be evaluated based on what their HS offers and what other applicant classmates have acheieved. Sure, some rural HS in the south may not offer calc - but if your HS is offering a full slate of math classes and others are getting to Calc (or beyond), then not taking pre-calc/trig seems like you are putting yourself at a disadvantage in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

Yes, I believe he was able to get honors credit in summer school. Needless to say summer school is abbreviated, but he was self motivated and for some people doing only one topic for 8 weeks is good. He was back with a top cohort in the fall, they were just a grade older.

That’s a route I personally would not recommend. Summer programs and self study are limiting. Teachers push you beyond your limits and teach you new mathematical concepts, how to use logic, how to apply these concepts in ways a young teenager can’t teach themselves. Beyond that, there is no advantage in college admissions for taking pre calc in 9th grade. Not sure if that’s something on his mind, or if he’s just a mathy kid who is simply self motivated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

Yes, I believe he was able to get honors credit in summer school. Needless to say summer school is abbreviated, but he was self motivated and for some people doing only one topic for 8 weeks is good. He was back with a top cohort in the fall, they were just a grade older.

That’s a route I personally would not recommend. Summer programs and self study are limiting. Teachers push you beyond your limits and teach you new mathematical concepts, how to use logic, how to apply these concepts in ways a young teenager can’t teach themselves. Beyond that, there is no advantage in college admissions for taking pre calc in 9th grade. Not sure if that’s something on his mind, or if he’s just a mathy kid who is simply self motivated.

Again I'm not recommending, certainly not for college admissions, that ship is over run. IME the teachers assigned advanced classes are better, so it works on that front, too. But I don't need a post mortem on this particular decision. DC is doing great, hanging out in office hours because he likes professors, learning from the best. He can take a qual this spring at which point he'd enroll in grad classes as a junior. Not my doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

Yes, I believe he was able to get honors credit in summer school. Needless to say summer school is abbreviated, but he was self motivated and for some people doing only one topic for 8 weeks is good. He was back with a top cohort in the fall, they were just a grade older.

That’s a route I personally would not recommend. Summer programs and self study are limiting. Teachers push you beyond your limits and teach you new mathematical concepts, how to use logic, how to apply these concepts in ways a young teenager can’t teach themselves. Beyond that, there is no advantage in college admissions for taking pre calc in 9th grade. Not sure if that’s something on his mind, or if he’s just a mathy kid who is simply self motivated.

We did summer 6 week classes for our child who was on the Algebra in 6th grade track for prep. The summer classes are great for prep but they don't cover all the material and go very fast so it's not equal to a full year class. Pre-Cal in 9th is very challenging. Mine did fine in it but it was hard. For most kids its absolutely not needed except for science and math majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

This isn’t the MCPS forum so not all posters have experience with this district, including myself.
I will note that your child bypassed these classes so your child doesn’t have experience either? Where did your child take Geometry & Alg 2H?

I was responding to the previous poster who said I wasn't an MCPS parent because in MCPS it isn't this way, it is. But this is not uncommon, there has been a nationwide push to get HS students through calc, and to add the scaffolding for that in MS. It should be no surprise that algebra for MS students is very different from the days of algebra for HS students.

My DC didn't bypass classes, he took alg 2 summer before HS. That worked well for him, he was ready for that level of abstraction in 9th grade, and it gave him the HS years to practice hone those skills. I'm not suggesting anyone do the same, I'm simply pointing out pre-calc is an important class, even for kids who aren't interested in calc, maybe even especially important for those students.

Did your child take the honors class? I will say there is a huge gulf between the material taught in honors classes and regular Geometry/Algebra 2 classes. we aren’t in MD, so I can’t speak to MCPS, but the honors coursework was extremely challenging. Only the top students take these classes at our school. Many others don’t want to risk the hit to their GPA.

Yes, I believe he was able to get honors credit in summer school. Needless to say summer school is abbreviated, but he was self motivated and for some people doing only one topic for 8 weeks is good. He was back with a top cohort in the fall, they were just a grade older.

That’s a route I personally would not recommend. Summer programs and self study are limiting. Teachers push you beyond your limits and teach you new mathematical concepts, how to use logic, how to apply these concepts in ways a young teenager can’t teach themselves. Beyond that, there is no advantage in college admissions for taking pre calc in 9th grade. Not sure if that’s something on his mind, or if he’s just a mathy kid who is simply self motivated.

We did summer 6 week classes for our child who was on the Algebra in 6th grade track for prep. The summer classes are great for prep but they don't cover all the material and go very fast so it's not equal to a full year class. Pre-Cal in 9th is very challenging. Mine did fine in it but it was hard. For most kids it’s absolutely not needed except for science and math majors.

And even then it’s not needed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

Stats is definately a much more useful math class for non-STEM students. However, in today's environment it will be challenging to get into most T100 universities if you don't have at least pre-calc, and in reality Calc for most Top 50 schools. It's just how it is.

It depends on the major. If you are not going into science or math, it's that big of a deal.