Pre-calc/Trig

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

The vast majority of private school kids who transfer to public school are behind in math. They have gaps 100% of the time.

- former public school teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

Maybe where you are it's different, but MCPS teaches all this.

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/math-support/high/algebra1-unit7

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/math-support/high/algebra2-unit2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

The vast majority of private school kids who transfer to public school are behind in math. They have gaps 100% of the time.

- former public school teacher

Kids who transfer often have some kind of problem that motivated the transfer, such as not being able to keep up with the previous school pace.

They also might not be "behind", but have learned a different mix of material, due to different order of content ("Integrated Math" vs the silly Algebra1/Geometry/Algebra2 sequence)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

MCPS does the same thing. The placement standards for transfering in are higher than the standards for existing students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer a pp, my child took precalc in Senior year in HS and is in a college ranked 50-100.

Fascinating. What is their major?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer a pp, my child took precalc in Senior year in HS and is in a college ranked 50-100.

Fascinating. What is their major?

He’s a business major. Doing very well in math so far( first semester only though).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

Maybe where you are it's different, but MCPS teaches all this.

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/math-support/high/algebra1-unit7

https://www2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/curriculum/math-support/high/algebra2-unit2

Nope. I was explicitly referring to MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

The vast majority of private school kids who transfer to public school are behind in math. They have gaps 100% of the time.

- former public school teacher

Kids who transfer often have some kind of problem that motivated the transfer, such as not being able to keep up with the previous school pace.

They also might not be "behind", but have learned a different mix of material, due to different order of content ("Integrated Math" vs the silly Algebra1/Geometry/Algebra2 sequence)?

No, that’s not the issue. Here is an example (true story): child was in private. Told every year in private there is no Competiton with this child and she’s the brightest math whiz they have ever seen. No peers and hard to keep up with her. Child moves to public and child struggles and needs tutors. Mom told me that she was kept on the class email list from private so she could see the math syllabus, weekly assignments, units, etc. mom said entire sections were left out - as in never covered- when compared to public.

Private definitely excels in other things- math is not one of them (above public).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

The vast majority of private school kids who transfer to public school are behind in math. They have gaps 100% of the time.

- former public school teacher

We've done both private and public school math classes. The private kids were far behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

My kid completed algebra 1 in his public middle school. He got an A. He took a placement test for his private HS and didn't come close to passing so he had to retake algebra 1. He wasn't the only one of his MS classmates. Public school grades need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Depends upon the public school. My kids both took Algebra 1 in MS---and it was taught well because it's the same damn curriculum as the HS. One kid (my less academically focused kid) made it thru Calculus Senior year (non-AP) and got an A in college business calc (not engineering). Other made it thru Calc BC senior year, earning a 5 and got an A in Calc 3/4 at a rigorous college, so obviously learned the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

Stats is definately a much more useful math class for non-STEM students. However, in today's environment it will be challenging to get into most T100 universities if you don't have at least pre-calc, and in reality Calc for most Top 50 schools. It's just how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a good couple of hundred fcps kids who graduate having done Multivariable/Linear algebra in senior year. So their math progression is:
12: Multivariable Calc + Linear algebra
11: AP Calc AB/BC
10: Precalc/Trig or AP Calc AB
09: Algebra 2

https://insys.fcps.edu/CourseCatOnline/courselist/415/10/0/0/0/1

And, mine is in precal in 9th. Who cares? Not all people are good at math. Op child will be fine and get into a good school for them. I would not have wanted to take precal or cal and never needed it.

I’m guessing you did take the subject covered in today’s precalc class, it just had a different name. I took algebra in 9th grade, which was typical, and it included many topics that my kids didn’t see until precalc.

If people want to rehash the need for calc, proceed, but the course OP wants to avoid is material most our grandparents had access to in HS.

NP. I have to disagree with you. I find today’s math curriculum more challenging than what I had in high school in NJ. I did on-level also, but my kid is getting a fantastic math education that is extremely rigorous. There are also so many resources for students now. Khan, YouTube, free tutoring, math honors society. I think the country’s math education has improved while history and literature classes have gotten worse in quality.

It's subtle. Because of the push to calculus, functional concepts are now introduced very early, algebra is a much more qualitative class than it was when parents took it. So in that sense things are more advanced. However, the flip side of that is that symbolic algebra is very much downplayed early on and really isn't introduced in full until pre-calc. So they'll see the graph of a log earlier, but pre-calc is when they learn that log(A+B) = (log A)(log B). They learn that trig functions are periodic earlier, but they deal with trig identities in pre-calc. Most kids can't do things like simplify a fraction containing variables until they take pre-calc. They certainly aren't seeing a symbolic proof of the quadratic formula (which my 9th grade teacher presented). So younger kids are taking these classes, and being exposed to concepts, but symbolic abstraction hits at about the same age/maturity.

So given the way courses are now taught, if a student doesn't take calculus, they sure miss the punch line--so much of what they learned throughout middle and high school was chosen specifically to support calculus. But that's not OP's issue. If a student doesn't get through pre-calc, they never learn concepts that have been key to being high school educated for several generations. You can't go by course titles, content has been rearranged. Statistics may be the goal, but knowing something like (e^x)(e^y) = e^(xy) will only help with that, again pre-calc.

This isn’t true. I can’t speak to what your child is or isn’t learning (maybe they got the “easy” teachers?), but it sounds like there are major gaps in their education that should be addressed. Luckily we have not experienced what you described.

No worries, my kid took pre-calc in 9th, now a sophomore in college studying math.

Go to the MCPS curriculum, look at the notes in italics that limit scope. IME teaching followed these restrictions. E.g. from algebra 2, first unit:

Note: The focus of this unit does not include composite functions. Composite functions will be used to further study inverse functions
in future courses. In developing an understanding of the meaning of inverse functions, it is not acceptable for students to use a
strategy to “switch” the x and y variables and then solve for y to determine an inverse function as this strategy promotes misconceptions.

Note: The focus of this unit does not include simplifying radicals. For example, sqrt (27)
is an acceptable answer, and does not need to be expressed as 3 sqrt (3) .

. Note: Students are not expected to utilize the properties of logarithms
to evaluate expressions or solve equations in this course.

These are all concepts being put off to pre-calc that once were stumbling blocks in algebra 1. That's fine, but it means pre-calc is the heart of HS math, this is important for parents like OP to understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pre-calc is a typical sophomore/junior class, so I don’t think skipping it would be great for admissions.

It is a senior year class if a student is "on grade level". On grade level is algebra, geometry, algebra 2 and then pre-calc/trig in HS.

We are all just so used to kids starting algebra in MS

This doesn't sound right to me? Non-accelerated students would take geometry, algebra2, pre-calc, calc or stats.