Psychologist recommends bathroom time out as punishment. Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our time outs were in the dining room corner.

Child cruelty! Authoritarian parenting!

Nobody said timeouts were cruel. It's the timeouts in the bathroom apparently triggered by any "disrespect" that are authoritarian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our time outs were in the dining room corner.

Child cruelty! Authoritarian parenting!

Nobody said timeouts were cruel. It's the timeouts in the bathroom apparently triggered by any "disrespect" that are authoritarian.

And your child is the one who isn’t invited to my house any more because of their rude, disrespectful attitude. You are doing them no favors by allowing them to behave that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our time outs were in the dining room corner.

Child cruelty! Authoritarian parenting!

Nobody said timeouts were cruel. It's the timeouts in the bathroom apparently triggered by any "disrespect" that are authoritarian.

And your child is the one who isn’t invited to my house any more because of their rude, disrespectful attitude. You are doing them no favors by allowing them to behave that way.

I'm sorry, what grade are you in?

What a childish response. You might as well add "nanny nanny poo poo."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our time outs were in the dining room corner.

Child cruelty! Authoritarian parenting!

Nobody said timeouts were cruel. It's the timeouts in the bathroom apparently triggered by any "disrespect" that are authoritarian.

Yes, people say time outs are cruel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you ever watched What Not to Wear? They give the person some rules and send them off. The rules give them a framework and a new way forward.

Your psychologist has given you 3 new rules, a new way forward. You can implement the rules in various ways but they should be in line with the rules.

"Give child 3 rules: 1) obedience, 2) respect, 3) no arguing. Parents have three rules when responding to child's breaking of these rules (child not told this but parents know): 1) be consistent, 2) no second chances, and 3) no warning before consequences."

Those are reasonable rules. They're about consistency, predictability, and reliability. For everyone. Stability and predictability is great for kids. They will test rules and boundaries, that's what they do, but they are a lot happier and more confident when they know where the rules and boundaries are.

This is the definition of authoritarian parenting, which studies have shown lead to poor outcomes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/authoritarian-parenting

Children reared by authoritarian families tend to depend more heavily on their parents (especially girls), be more submissive, less socially adept, less confident, less intellectually curious, and less committed to achievement in comparison with children reared in authoritative homes. Furthermore, children reared by authoritarian parents often exhibit hostility and shyness toward peers and show higher levels of aggression (Casas et al., 2006).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/

"Furthermore, this parenting style can result in children who have higher levels of aggression but may also be shy, socially inept, and unable to make their own decisions.[1] This aggression can remain uncontrolled as they have difficulty managing anger as they were not provided with proper guidance. They have poor self-esteem, which further reinforces their inability to make decisions.[2] Strict parental rules and punishments often influence the child to rebel against authority figures as they grow older."

No, it's authoritative. As opposed to OP's current permissive parenting that is not working.

Wrong. in the bolded above the rules are obedience and no arguing. That is the definition of authoritarian.

Also wanted to add there is no evidence the OP is a permissive parent.

If her child is having difficulties it may very well be ADHD or something else, and have nothing to do with her parenting style.

Not everything is Mom's fault.

Kids with ADHD need clear rules conveyed consistently. Not confusing, permissive or gentle parenting.

ADHD isn't Mom's fault but she can parent it better or parent it worse.

Gentle parenting doesn't have to be permissive or confusing. You can be gentle but still set rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Time outs in the bedroom are a normal form of punishment. I wouldn't put my kid in the bathroom alone.

I wonder about this. OP says the psychologist suggest the bathroom because it is more of a punishment than being sent to their room, which is presumably more comfortable. Like the psychologist picked the bathroom specifically because it's hard and cold with nowhere comfy to sit. That's... messed up. Having a child take a time out because they can't use kind words or are being ruled by emotion is one thing, but there's not reason that child can't calm down while sitting on their bed, looking at a book, or even playing with a toy. Comfort and distraction are not counterproductive in that situation -- they may actually be conducive to the child calming.

I have a kid who I can't give time outs to when she is really upset because she will try to destroy something. So I don't send her to her room because once when she was four, I had her do a time out in her room and she picked up her doll house and threw it on the ground. I could see someone responding to that by saying "ok, then you have to do a timeout in the bathroom where you can't throw toys" but then I think a very disregulated child would just rip down the shower curtain, slam the toilet lid, pull all the toilet paper off the roll, etc.

I have found that with a child who has this level of emotional disregulation, the only thing that works is co-regulation, where you stay calm and use your words, breathing, and calming actions to lead the child into a calmer place by modeling. Not only is it the best way to address a tantrum like this in the moment, but it is also the only way to teach a child who gets this worked up how to come back down, because kids who have these kind of wild mood swings NEED a set of tools for managing strong emotions. They won't find any tools in the bathroom.

I agree with you.

[Anonymous]

This sounds horrid. Shocking that a psychologist would recommend it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Time outs in the bedroom are a normal form of punishment. I wouldn't put my kid in the bathroom alone.

I wonder about this. OP says the psychologist suggest the bathroom because it is more of a punishment than being sent to their room, which is presumably more comfortable. Like the psychologist picked the bathroom specifically because it's hard and cold with nowhere comfy to sit. That's... messed up. Having a child take a time out because they can't use kind words or are being ruled by emotion is one thing, but there's not reason that child can't calm down while sitting on their bed, looking at a book, or even playing with a toy. Comfort and distraction are not counterproductive in that situation -- they may actually be conducive to the child calming.

I have a kid who I can't give time outs to when she is really upset because she will try to destroy something. So I don't send her to her room because once when she was four, I had her do a time out in her room and she picked up her doll house and threw it on the ground. I could see someone responding to that by saying "ok, then you have to do a timeout in the bathroom where you can't throw toys" but then I think a very disregulated child would just rip down the shower curtain, slam the toilet lid, pull all the toilet paper off the roll, etc.

I have found that with a child who has this level of emotional disregulation, the only thing that works is co-regulation, where you stay calm and use your words, breathing, and calming actions to lead the child into a calmer place by modeling. Not only is it the best way to address a tantrum like this in the moment, but it is also the only way to teach a child who gets this worked up how to come back down, because kids who have these kind of wild mood swings NEED a set of tools for managing strong emotions. They won't find any tools in the bathroom.

I agree with you.

Completely agree. Discipline is supposed to teach the child. Being sent to the bathroom doesn’t teach them anything. Except many shame and to hate their parents.

[Anonymous]

Is this a Christian psychologist? (I don’t mean is her religion incidentally Christian. I mean is her whole philosophy about teaching you to parent in a Christ-centered way.) I have found that they have some very strange views on parenting and psychology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I spoke to a psychologist with expertise in parenting and she gave this advice:

Give child 3 rules: 1) obedience, 2) respect, 3) no arguing. Parents have three rules when responding to child's breaking of these rules (child not told this but parents know): 1) be consistent, 2) no second chances, and 3) no warning before consequences.

If child breaks one of the rules, they are put in bathroom for timeout, for six minutes, and they must think and be quiet. Presumably if they are not quiet they stay longer or something.

Psychologist also said she doesn't recommend discussing/reasoning with child as it just promotes arguing and doesn't yield much compliance/harmony in the household. She also said kids don't feel guilty enough and her method is designed to foster healthy guilt (not shame).

My gut reaction is no to the bathroom punishment. I had reactions to the rules she gave as well but am curious about what others think.

I agree with everything except the “time out” philosophy.
How old is your child?
Exactly are the issues?

[Anonymous]

Exactly what are the behavior issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our time outs were in the dining room corner.

Child cruelty! Authoritarian parenting!

Nobody said timeouts were cruel. It's the timeouts in the bathroom apparently triggered by any "disrespect" that are authoritarian.

And your child is the one who isn’t invited to my house any more because of their rude, disrespectful attitude. You are doing them no favors by allowing them to behave that way.

I don’t send my kids to houses with jerk parents so it’s ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you ever watched What Not to Wear? They give the person some rules and send them off. The rules give them a framework and a new way forward.

Your psychologist has given you 3 new rules, a new way forward. You can implement the rules in various ways but they should be in line with the rules.

"Give child 3 rules: 1) obedience, 2) respect, 3) no arguing. Parents have three rules when responding to child's breaking of these rules (child not told this but parents know): 1) be consistent, 2) no second chances, and 3) no warning before consequences."

Those are reasonable rules. They're about consistency, predictability, and reliability. For everyone. Stability and predictability is great for kids. They will test rules and boundaries, that's what they do, but they are a lot happier and more confident when they know where the rules and boundaries are.

This is the definition of authoritarian parenting, which studies have shown lead to poor outcomes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/authoritarian-parenting

Children reared by authoritarian families tend to depend more heavily on their parents (especially girls), be more submissive, less socially adept, less confident, less intellectually curious, and less committed to achievement in comparison with children reared in authoritative homes. Furthermore, children reared by authoritarian parents often exhibit hostility and shyness toward peers and show higher levels of aggression (Casas et al., 2006).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/

"Furthermore, this parenting style can result in children who have higher levels of aggression but may also be shy, socially inept, and unable to make their own decisions.[1] This aggression can remain uncontrolled as they have difficulty managing anger as they were not provided with proper guidance. They have poor self-esteem, which further reinforces their inability to make decisions.[2] Strict parental rules and punishments often influence the child to rebel against authority figures as they grow older."

No, it's authoritative. As opposed to OP's current permissive parenting that is not working.

Wrong. in the bolded above the rules are obedience and no arguing. That is the definition of authoritarian.

Also wanted to add there is no evidence the OP is a permissive parent.

If her child is having difficulties it may very well be ADHD or something else, and have nothing to do with her parenting style.

Not everything is Mom's fault.

Establishing rules and consequences is not the definition of authoritarian parenting. The difference between that and authoritative parenting is a lack of warmth and parental responsivess. The way to have successful kids is to have high standards but also parent with warmth and love. You can have both of those things at the same time. Allowing your child to disobey rules that you presumably created for their own good does no one any favors — not them, whom the rules were designed to benefit, and not their teachers, who are stuck dealing with disrespectful kids all day.

OP here. It's not quite so simple. The warmth and responsiveness that is inherent to authoritative parenting involves being flexible, listening, talking...When the psychologist says "no arguing" and says she thinks discussion and reasoning with children is not useful, this is not authoritative parenting. Locking a child in the bathroom is a punishment, and doing so for lack of obedience and arguing, no second chances (inflexibility) are all more consistent with authoritarianism.

Authoritative parents have high expectations but are less focused on punishments and absolute control over their children. Obedience connotes control--do it because I said so, rather than because it's something reasonable that is good for you, the family, etc.

DC would be upset to be sent to their room because DC would know they hadn't met expectations that they themselves are on board with, and they want to make us happy and proud, not disappointed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you ever watched What Not to Wear? They give the person some rules and send them off. The rules give them a framework and a new way forward.

Your psychologist has given you 3 new rules, a new way forward. You can implement the rules in various ways but they should be in line with the rules.

"Give child 3 rules: 1) obedience, 2) respect, 3) no arguing. Parents have three rules when responding to child's breaking of these rules (child not told this but parents know): 1) be consistent, 2) no second chances, and 3) no warning before consequences."

Those are reasonable rules. They're about consistency, predictability, and reliability. For everyone. Stability and predictability is great for kids. They will test rules and boundaries, that's what they do, but they are a lot happier and more confident when they know where the rules and boundaries are.

This is the definition of authoritarian parenting, which studies have shown lead to poor outcomes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/authoritarian-parenting

Children reared by authoritarian families tend to depend more heavily on their parents (especially girls), be more submissive, less socially adept, less confident, less intellectually curious, and less committed to achievement in comparison with children reared in authoritative homes. Furthermore, children reared by authoritarian parents often exhibit hostility and shyness toward peers and show higher levels of aggression (Casas et al., 2006).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/

"Furthermore, this parenting style can result in children who have higher levels of aggression but may also be shy, socially inept, and unable to make their own decisions.[1] This aggression can remain uncontrolled as they have difficulty managing anger as they were not provided with proper guidance. They have poor self-esteem, which further reinforces their inability to make decisions.[2] Strict parental rules and punishments often influence the child to rebel against authority figures as they grow older."

No, it's authoritative. As opposed to OP's current permissive parenting that is not working.

Wrong. in the bolded above the rules are obedience and no arguing. That is the definition of authoritarian.

Also wanted to add there is no evidence the OP is a permissive parent.

If her child is having difficulties it may very well be ADHD or something else, and have nothing to do with her parenting style.

Not everything is Mom's fault.

Establishing rules and consequences is not the definition of authoritarian parenting. The difference between that and authoritative parenting is a lack of warmth and parental responsivess. The way to have successful kids is to have high standards but also parent with warmth and love. You can have both of those things at the same time. Allowing your child to disobey rules that you presumably created for their own good does no one any favors — not them, whom the rules were designed to benefit, and not their teachers, who are stuck dealing with disrespectful kids all day.

OP here. It's not quite so simple. The warmth and responsiveness that is inherent to authoritative parenting involves being flexible, listening, talking...When the psychologist says "no arguing" and says she thinks discussion and reasoning with children is not useful, this is not authoritative parenting. Locking a child in the bathroom is a punishment, and doing so for lack of obedience and arguing, no second chances (inflexibility) are all more consistent with authoritarianism.

Authoritative parents have high expectations but are less focused on punishments and absolute control over their children. Obedience connotes control--do it because I said so, rather than because it's something reasonable that is good for you, the family, etc.

DC would be upset to be sent to their room because DC would know they hadn't met expectations that they themselves are on board with, and they want to make us happy and proud, not disappointed.

you seem to be pretty sure of yourself. what exactly is the issue?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, have you ever watched What Not to Wear? They give the person some rules and send them off. The rules give them a framework and a new way forward.

Your psychologist has given you 3 new rules, a new way forward. You can implement the rules in various ways but they should be in line with the rules.

"Give child 3 rules: 1) obedience, 2) respect, 3) no arguing. Parents have three rules when responding to child's breaking of these rules (child not told this but parents know): 1) be consistent, 2) no second chances, and 3) no warning before consequences."

Those are reasonable rules. They're about consistency, predictability, and reliability. For everyone. Stability and predictability is great for kids. They will test rules and boundaries, that's what they do, but they are a lot happier and more confident when they know where the rules and boundaries are.

This is the definition of authoritarian parenting, which studies have shown lead to poor outcomes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/authoritarian-parenting

Children reared by authoritarian families tend to depend more heavily on their parents (especially girls), be more submissive, less socially adept, less confident, less intellectually curious, and less committed to achievement in comparison with children reared in authoritative homes. Furthermore, children reared by authoritarian parents often exhibit hostility and shyness toward peers and show higher levels of aggression (Casas et al., 2006).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/

"Furthermore, this parenting style can result in children who have higher levels of aggression but may also be shy, socially inept, and unable to make their own decisions.[1] This aggression can remain uncontrolled as they have difficulty managing anger as they were not provided with proper guidance. They have poor self-esteem, which further reinforces their inability to make decisions.[2] Strict parental rules and punishments often influence the child to rebel against authority figures as they grow older."

No, it's authoritative. As opposed to OP's current permissive parenting that is not working.

Wrong. in the bolded above the rules are obedience and no arguing. That is the definition of authoritarian.

Also wanted to add there is no evidence the OP is a permissive parent.

If her child is having difficulties it may very well be ADHD or something else, and have nothing to do with her parenting style.

Not everything is Mom's fault.

Establishing rules and consequences is not the definition of authoritarian parenting. The difference between that and authoritative parenting is a lack of warmth and parental responsivess. The way to have successful kids is to have high standards but also parent with warmth and love. You can have both of those things at the same time. Allowing your child to disobey rules that you presumably created for their own good does no one any favors — not them, whom the rules were designed to benefit, and not their teachers, who are stuck dealing with disrespectful kids all day.

OP here. It's not quite so simple. The warmth and responsiveness that is inherent to authoritative parenting involves being flexible, listening, talking...When the psychologist says "no arguing" and says she thinks discussion and reasoning with children is not useful, this is not authoritative parenting. Locking a child in the bathroom is a punishment, and doing so for lack of obedience and arguing, no second chances (inflexibility) are all more consistent with authoritarianism.

Authoritative parents have high expectations but are less focused on punishments and absolute control over their children. Obedience connotes control--do it because I said so, rather than because it's something reasonable that is good for you, the family, etc.

DC would be upset to be sent to their room because DC would know they hadn't met expectations that they themselves are on board with, and they want to make us happy and proud, not disappointed.

Okay. But if you wonder why your kid argues with you and doesn't do what you ask, reread this response. It's right there.