At what point do we pull the plug?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This post is interesting because mine has been asking me if I think other schools taught different/more math than what they had b/c “everyone” in class seems to already know what is being taught. If that is indeed the case, I’d rather mine drop as that is just asking for heartache. What happened to learning math in math class?

I taught MS math in FCPS at an AAP center that had multiple feeder elementary AAP centers. Almost without exception, my strugglers in Hon Math 7 came from one particular small ES center. Every year, even before Covid, AAP kids from this school were just missing basic math knowledge. (When I talked to the kids from this school who were successful students---they all went to Russian school of math, AOPS, Kumon, etc.). For whatever reason, this one FCPS ES did not teach math well. The strugglers always had had good grades in ES math and didn't understand why my class was so hard! Well, they were shaky on their basic multiplication facts and couldn't do anything with fractions!

My 8th grader has been helping friends with math for a couple of years. Like you said, it's foundational stuff, like multiplication, division, and fractions. Once they understand these, the MS classes become so much easier. She does say though that some kids have no math sense, and there doesn't seem to be anything she can do to get through to them.

Are you saying fluency when you say foundational? That some kids have it down more and can do problems faster?

Not just fluency, but basic conceptual gaps in what things are, and what these operations mean in that context. Fractions seem to be really hard, for instance. Like why is it that when you multiply a fraction (less than one), it gets smaller, but when you multiply whole numbers, they get larger. I'm supposed to try and explain absolute value to her friend, because she's just not getting it, despite seeing it from what, 5th grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

DP. In this case I am assuming you are referring to a child who is entering AAP for the first time in a given year?

If so, the school should be providing supports over the summer to help bridge the gap. Relying on parents or on outside enrichment or resources is gatekeeping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Alg in 7th is no joke - and I told my kid that. He is mathy - and was up for the extra work, and I felt he was up to that challenge so I allowed him to do it but that class was definitely the most work him in 7th and 8th grades. He is taking Alg II in 9th grade now, and I have another 6th grader in AAP now. I already know my two younger ones likely shouldn't do Alg 1 in 7th - even if they qualify.

That is exactly the case - they should not take Alg in 7th if they did not understand what they were taught the first time. That is exactly who should take Honors Math 7 in 7th instead of Alg 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

DP. In this case I am assuming you are referring to a child who is entering AAP for the first time in a given year?

If so, the school should be providing supports over the summer to help bridge the gap. Relying on parents or on outside enrichment or resources is gatekeeping.

Pp and correct. I am referring to the first year they enter AAP.

Unfortunately our elementary school (center school if that makes a difference) did not provide any meaningful support whatsoever over the summer to bridge the gap. That said, they really don’t have to. Prospective AAP parents sign their kids up for Kumon in Kindergarten so there’s really no point.

[Anonymous]

If you don't want to do extra math at home, doing 7H and then algebra in 8 and calculus in 12 is an excellent college prep curriculum.

It so happens that math is relatively standardized and accessibile to learn at home, if the student puts in time and has access to paid or free teaching resources. So the schools accommodate students who get to advance math earlier.

That doesn't mean your school-only math kid won't get into TJ or MIT. It doesn't mean that the kids are in the more advanced classes we'll get in to TJ or MIT. These schools understand "equity" and are more and more picking from the top "tier" of talent, not the absolute highest scores on tests.

There are also different levels of innate interest and ability. I have two kids. One of them loves math and gets math quickly and breezes through advanced classes. Another one likes math okay and is good at math and gets through advanced classes now but I'm not sure it will hold up.

But the difference in how they intuitively "get" math is still huge. The one who loves math and gets math enjoy spending more time on it, is self-motivated for it, which leads to more math learning. That one grasps the core concepts quickly and can easily apply them, while the other sticks closer to learning the rules taught in school. That one studies some "non school" math that won't help advance through the curriculum, which might be a "disadvantage" in some strict ranking systems and contests.

The other one is more talented in other subjects.
If I had to bet, I'd bet that my less mathy one will do better in school overall.

[Anonymous]

As an algebra teacher, please please please move sooner rather than later. The prealgebra curriculum covers functions and equations in 1st quarter. If your child struggles through first quarter algebra without absorbing much, then moves to prealgebra (m7h) they will never learn to solve an equation well.

[Anonymous]

Many previous posters have given you good advice as to reasons why you might choose to stay put, or switch classes, academically.

I just want to also add -- as the parent of a child with anxiety -- that it is unlikely algebra is really the root of this sudden spike in anxiety. And it is very likely that, once the class is switched, the anxiety will find another way to manifest itself, so please just be prepared for that. If you start down the path of avoiding all the things that cause anxiety (which I initially made the mistake of doing) there will be no end to it.

That doesn't mean, of course, that your child has to stick it out in algebra right now Just prepare yourself for the next round of anxiety, unfortunately. It's rough.

[Anonymous]

Why is he taking algebra in 7th grade? What’s the rush?

[Anonymous]

Too early to pull the plug, but be aware that there is a good chance that DC has some classmates who are (or have been) supplementing in math outside school at AoPS/Kumon/Mathnasium/RSM. Many of the most successful math students supplement outside school. If it were my chid, I would start supplementing on math, either myself at home or outside school at one of the above. I would not rely on good quality math instruction existing at any US school, because PISA scores show that is unlikely.

Also, some FCPS math teachers (not all, just some) count on this outside math supplementing and aren’t super-focused on teaching, since their overall class grade distribution will look ok.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’ve been through this and I highly recommend pulling the kid out of the class. Are you by chance at Longfellow? First, it’s easier to switch earlier because there needs to be space in the other class. Trust me, your kid won’t be the only one switching…second, your kid may need math 7 honors to shore up some skills particularly at a school like Longfellow where a lot of kids have taken math outside of school and the school’s class is a very advanced version of honors algebra.

If you do stay in the class, commit to finding asap a really qualified tutor. Plan to spend $75-100 per session.

There is no reason your child needs to take algebra in 7th if it’s causing stress and anxiety. It’s the definition of a race to nowhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Too early to pull the plug, but be aware that there is a good chance that DC has some classmates who are (or have been) supplementing in math outside school at AoPS/Kumon/Mathnasium/RSM. Many of the most successful math students supplement outside school. If it were my chid, I would start supplementing on math, either myself at home or outside school at one of the above. I would not rely on good quality math instruction existing at any US school, because PISA scores show that is unlikely.

Also, some FCPS math teachers (not all, just some) count on this outside math supplementing and aren’t super-focused on teaching, since their overall class grade distribution will look ok.

NP. This is a misunderstanding of PISA scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it's really quite early for your son to feel so overwhelmed by math. The beginning stuff should be review. Have you sat down with him and gone over the material they have covered, to see what exactly is bothering him?

OP here - DC got very frustrated with homework and got most of the problems wrong. This has not been the case in the past. MS itself has been a bit of a transition, so this has just compounded it. Unfortunately, I can’t really help as this level of math is many years behind me in memory. The teacher is being supportive and believes they are in the right place and urged patience.

Sorry if this is awkward.. but I have to wonder how is it possible that an adult cannot really help due to the math being "many years beyond"? They haven't started doing any remotely complicated algebra, and are likely doing basic word problems with variables, which should be... solvable for adults with common sense. Genuinely curious as to what topics and problems are assigned that it is beyond you and your child, because something doesn't make sense here. If you can give specific examples, we can help point you in the right direction in terms of what you or your child should study and/or how they should think about the problems.

Are you kidding??? I have an undergraduate and professional degrees from Ivy League schools but I could not help at all once my kids were in 7th grade. I haven’t done any math since first year of college and I remember nothing, truly nothing.

[Anonymous]

Algebra is the main reason for students overall to not graduate HS! This is because it is so important to have a firm grasp on the basics and not rush yourself. (My brother went to MIT and now teaches MS math having retired).
The steps upward in math can leave your HS student taking something very advanced that they may never need unless going into a heavily math oriented career. Better to wait and fully understand math and not kill their interest in math in MS. Especially since it is required in HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Algebra is the main reason for students overall to not graduate HS! This is because it is so important to have a firm grasp on the basics and not rush yourself. (My brother went to MIT and now teaches MS math having retired).
The steps upward in math can leave your HS student taking something very advanced that they may never need unless going into a heavily math oriented career. Better to wait and fully understand math and not kill their interest in math in MS. Especially since it is required in HS.

I will be honest, I didn’t understand how kids could enjoy math enough to choose to participate in math enrichment and competitions until I had a kid that asks to take math classes and loves the competitions. Some kids like to practice and learn math the same way some kids love to read. DS asks, and confirms many times, to attend RSM. He asks to participate in the math competition program. He just likes math.

He is in 6th grade right now. I suspect that he will test into Algebra in 7th grade. He has passed advanced on every SOL so far, including last years Advanced Math SOL. He is used to timed tests because of competitions. He is taking pre-algebra at RSM this year. And Algebra in 7th will be the right fit for him. I would agree that it is not the right fit for most students but it will work for him.

We didn’t enroll in RSM until the year of distance learning when the math was plain awful. DS enjoys math too much to have an entire year of crap math instruction that was just plain basic. He has asked to continue every year since. I don’t expect schools to be able to meet every kids needs. His school does not offer Algebra in 6th and we were not going to send him to a MS for math or allow him to do online Algebra. Math at school is great practice that helps him solidify his foundational knowledge. Math at RSM challenges him. It works for us.