At what point do we pull the plug?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it's really quite early for your son to feel so overwhelmed by math. The beginning stuff should be review. Have you sat down with him and gone over the material they have covered, to see what exactly is bothering him?

OP here - DC got very frustrated with homework and got most of the problems wrong. This has not been the case in the past. MS itself has been a bit of a transition, so this has just compounded it. Unfortunately, I can’t really help as this level of math is many years behind me in memory. The teacher is being supportive and believes they are in the right place and urged patience.

Sorry if this is awkward.. but I have to wonder how is it possible that an adult cannot really help due to the math being "many years beyond"? They haven't started doing any remotely complicated algebra, and are likely doing basic word problems with variables, which should be... solvable for adults with common sense. Genuinely curious as to what topics and problems are assigned that it is beyond you and your child, because something doesn't make sense here. If you can give specific examples, we can help point you in the right direction in terms of what you or your child should study and/or how they should think about the problems.

One of the books that really did change my life was Liping Ma's "Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics". She asked a short series of questions covering relatively basic math to elementary school teachers selected as being highly interested in the subject. US teachers did badly. For example, half of them couldn't divide by fractions. Only one out of twenty-six or so could come up with a mathematically correct example illustrating the concept of division by fractions, and it wasn't even a good example. This suggests to me is that these "basic math" problems are, in fact, a *lot* more difficult than us mathy people realize. And also that the math instruction of anyone who grew up in the US is not likely to have been very good.

It's a great book. Really interesting to see how the Chinese teachers taught and understood the material differently from US teachers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

Actually, it’s not that almost all AAP parents supplement, but that they almost all do enrichment. The two are not the same.

So, by the time kids reach 3rd grade, those who have already studied 3rd grade concepts outside of the school, are ok with AAP teachers doing quick video and then the test. Kids who are seeing the concepts for the first time in their life need proper instruction, not just the short video. This creates an artificial determination who is a good fit for AAP and who is not. It is detrimental to disadvantaged kids and those whose parents are clueless (like I was). By the time kids reach middle school, the gap widens, and both kids and parents who are not doing outside enrichment can get a false impression of lack of aptitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

Actually, it’s not that almost all AAP parents supplement, but that they almost all do enrichment. The two are not the same.

So, by the time kids reach 3rd grade, those who have already studied 3rd grade concepts outside of the school, are ok with AAP teachers doing quick video and then the test. Kids who are seeing the concepts for the first time in their life need proper instruction, not just the short video. This creates an artificial determination who is a good fit for AAP and who is not. It is detrimental to disadvantaged kids and those whose parents are clueless (like I was). By the time kids reach middle school, the gap widens, and both kids and parents who are not doing outside enrichment can get a false impression of lack of aptitude.

Oh please. That's poor teaching. You don't have to sugarcoat it. Not all AAP teachers are poor teachers and not all AAP classes show a video then give a quiz.

Fwiw, that seems to be a style of teaching that some teachers learn at teaching school - and we should all be unhappy about it because it's poor teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

Actually, it’s not that almost all AAP parents supplement, but that they almost all do enrichment. The two are not the same.

So, by the time kids reach 3rd grade, those who have already studied 3rd grade concepts outside of the school, are ok with AAP teachers doing quick video and then the test. Kids who are seeing the concepts for the first time in their life need proper instruction, not just the short video. This creates an artificial determination who is a good fit for AAP and who is not. It is detrimental to disadvantaged kids and those whose parents are clueless (like I was). By the time kids reach middle school, the gap widens, and both kids and parents who are not doing outside enrichment can get a false impression of lack of aptitude.

Oh please. That's poor teaching. You don't have to sugarcoat it. Not all AAP teachers are poor teachers and not all AAP classes show a video then give a quiz.

Fwiw, that seems to be a style of teaching that some teachers learn at teaching school - and we should all be unhappy about it because it's poor teaching.

I am not sure what is it that you think I am sugarcoating. I agree that this is poor teaching first and foremost. But, here is the kick, I have heard AAP teachers so many times say that they use those quick checks to see how much of actual instruction is needed.

90% of the kids “got it” from the video without instruction? Cool, they can move on and tell parents of the remaining 10% that their kids need “more practice”.

At least if they were honest to say, “hey someone needs to teach your kid this”, I could get on board.

You are probably right that not all AAP teachers use this approach. I wouldn’t have a clue how widespread is this practice, since I don’t have any connection to FCPS other than being a parent of an enrolled child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

Actually, it’s not that almost all AAP parents supplement, but that they almost all do enrichment. The two are not the same.

So, by the time kids reach 3rd grade, those who have already studied 3rd grade concepts outside of the school, are ok with AAP teachers doing quick video and then the test. Kids who are seeing the concepts for the first time in their life need proper instruction, not just the short video. This creates an artificial determination who is a good fit for AAP and who is not. It is detrimental to disadvantaged kids and those whose parents are clueless (like I was). By the time kids reach middle school, the gap widens, and both kids and parents who are not doing outside enrichment can get a false impression of lack of aptitude.

Oh please. That's poor teaching. You don't have to sugarcoat it. Not all AAP teachers are poor teachers and not all AAP classes show a video then give a quiz.

Fwiw, that seems to be a style of teaching that some teachers learn at teaching school - and we should all be unhappy about it because it's poor teaching.

I am not sure what is it that you think I am sugarcoating. I agree that this is poor teaching first and foremost. But, here is the kick, I have heard AAP teachers so many times say that they use those quick checks to see how much of actual instruction is needed.

90% of the kids “got it” from the video without instruction? Cool, they can move on and tell parents of the remaining 10% that their kids need “more practice”.

At least if they were honest to say, “hey someone needs to teach your kid this”, I could get on board.

You are probably right that not all AAP teachers use this approach. I wouldn’t have a clue how widespread is this practice, since I don’t have any connection to FCPS other than being a parent of an enrolled child.

This is insane. This is not rocket science they are teaching kids. Basic grammar. Simple math. Simple science.

For heavens sake, you are talking 3rd grade and 4th grade. You dont need to supplement or enrich to get these concepts.

The most important things is that the kid is paying attention in class. Make sure of that and everything falls into place. To get that they need proper sleep, good breakfast and a little executive functioning skills.

If you have to supplement and enrich so your kid is not falling behind means you are messing on something basic like above.

3 kids who have gone through or in AAP now and we never had to supplement or enrich on academics. Sure sports and music but spending time again on things they should be learning at school is extremely inefficient. It is better to make sure they are learning what they are supposed to be learning at school well.

[Anonymous]

I have volunteered in classes before COVID and there are a large number of kids who are not paying attention.

If there is one thing you can do to make it easier both for you and your kid, it is to make sure they are paying attention in class.

Or you end up trying to repair it with "enrichment" and "supplementing".

[Anonymous]

At least in AAP, I think teachers are doing a pretty good job. If there is one area of improvement it is more emphasis on grammar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are quickly finding out that many parents who enrich their children do so NOT because their child is a stand-out in math. Rather by the simple act of enriching they make their kid stand out relative to other children who do not enrich.

Math is peculiar, especially when you get to Alg.2, trig, pre-calc, Calc BC, that NO matter how bright the child, that child will not KNOW the math until it is taught to them. If it is taught earlier than the normal sequence, then presto, your child is somehow "gifted' in math.

Any child with a normal intellect working OUTSIDE of school for 2-3 hours per week will have zero problems with Algebra I. Zero. It is all about the effort you want to make as a parent. Some prioritize it; others do not.

You probably already know this, but unless your kid is hooked, eg, first-generation, low-income, staying in the accelerated track is necessary for top 20 colleges, and really top 50.

Ha ha. You don't know what you're talking about.

We see plenty of attempts by non-gifted children to take enrichment classes who fail. Your "normal intellect" child will not be successful, for instance, in AoPS Algebra in 4th or 5th grade the way my gifted child was. We know this because some parents try and end up with children who
- drop out of AoPS/RSM (and go to remedial shops like Kumon/Mathnasium)
- even if they don't drop out, do not do well in those classes
- even if they manage to finish can master, at best, the braindead school Algebra courses but would fail immediately at actual problem solving

You seem to be in agreement with PP - enrichment helps all students, including "non-gifted children".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is utterly exhausting.

So, the expectation now is I need to privately enroll my child in a class BEFORE they take the class to be successful in the class?

I was pretty against Alg. 1 in 7th grade with my 6th grader, but this whole approach is so frustrating. It all mimics my kid's experience in AAP -- the teachers expect these kids to have learned whatever concepts that were being taught for the first time "before" so class is actually just a quick review and assessment. and if they haven't, it's up to the student (i.e. their parents) to fill in the gaps.

Because most of the kids have learned the concepts before. By placing your child in AAP (and I am specifically talking about math here) you are placing your child into a program that is an entire grade level above what they are meant to be learning. It’s not accelerated. It’s not deeper understanding of concepts. It it literally a straight up jump from one year to the next. Which means if you want your kid to genuinely understand what is going on, you, as a parent, HAVE to fill in those gaps of learning. Whether it is via a tutor, RSM, a parent who just also happens to be a math teacher, whatever. You have to get them caught up. Then you have two types of kids/parents: the kids who stick with intensive math enrichment and the ones who don’t. Guess who is going to get left in the dust….

And then there are parent like myself. Kid was accepted to AAP without parents knowing much about the program. I asked and asked, even on this forum, whether there is anything we need to be aware of or try to prepare before the start of third grade. No one told me what you described (and what I am painfully aware of now). Most responses, even here on dcum, we’re in lines of “just read a lot, let your kid enjoy the summer, visit a library …”

We have caught up and doing math enrichment now, but it was so confusing in third grade why teachers were only showing short videos and then immediately doing tests. DC also struggled with concepts that were not that hard, but it was not DC’s math aptitude - the pace and lack of explanation at school was the issue. Only after a full school year, some of the parents opened up, and every single one of them had their child in Kumon, RSM or AoPS since Kindergarten. We are doing the same now and DC is doing great.

Parents should be somehow made aware. It’s not like we didn’t ask teachers and fellow parents before third grade.

Go mention the fact that everyone in your DC's class secretly supplements in other AAP/FCPS threads and see what response you get. You'll quickly understand why parents can be hesitant to share this fact. The presumption is that if you need to supplement, your kid never belonged in AAP to begin with.

("only parents whose kids are truly gifted and belong in AAP can see the Emperor's clothes")

Actually, it’s not that almost all AAP parents supplement, but that they almost all do enrichment. The two are not the same.

So, by the time kids reach 3rd grade, those who have already studied 3rd grade concepts outside of the school, are ok with AAP teachers doing quick video and then the test. Kids who are seeing the concepts for the first time in their life need proper instruction, not just the short video. This creates an artificial determination who is a good fit for AAP and who is not. It is detrimental to disadvantaged kids and those whose parents are clueless (like I was). By the time kids reach middle school, the gap widens, and both kids and parents who are not doing outside enrichment can get a false impression of lack of aptitude.

Oh please. That's poor teaching. You don't have to sugarcoat it. Not all AAP teachers are poor teachers and not all AAP classes show a video then give a quiz.

Fwiw, that seems to be a style of teaching that some teachers learn at teaching school - and we should all be unhappy about it because it's poor teaching.

I am not sure what is it that you think I am sugarcoating. I agree that this is poor teaching first and foremost. But, here is the kick, I have heard AAP teachers so many times say that they use those quick checks to see how much of actual instruction is needed.

90% of the kids “got it” from the video without instruction? Cool, they can move on and tell parents of the remaining 10% that their kids need “more practice”.

At least if they were honest to say, “hey someone needs to teach your kid this”, I could get on board.

You are probably right that not all AAP teachers use this approach. I wouldn’t have a clue how widespread is this practice, since I don’t have any connection to FCPS other than being a parent of an enrolled child.

This is insane. This is not rocket science they are teaching kids. Basic grammar. Simple math. Simple science.

For heavens sake, you are talking 3rd grade and 4th grade. You dont need to supplement or enrich to get these concepts.

The most important things is that the kid is paying attention in class. Make sure of that and everything falls into place. To get that they need proper sleep, good breakfast and a little executive functioning skills.

If you have to supplement and enrich so your kid is not falling behind means you are messing on something basic like above.

3 kids who have gone through or in AAP now and we never had to supplement or enrich on academics. Sure sports and music but spending time again on things they should be learning at school is extremely inefficient. It is better to make sure they are learning what they are supposed to be learning at school well.

This is how it is supposed to be (teachers doing their job teaching and the rest falling on kids paying attention). Do you mind sharing which school or pyramid you are at?

We are at Woodson pyramid and experienced a lot of short video instruction followed by a quiz approach in 3rd AAP. And, no, not all concepts are trivial for an 8 year old without prior/proper instruction.

[Anonymous]

Also, are you at LLIV or AAP Center? And, none of your 3 AAP kids ever competed in any academic field and prepared for that competition (which would qualify as enrichment)?


And remember the main topic of this thread: OP’s child is struggling in MS math AAP and the question is why and what to do about that?

I don’t know what is true in OP’s case, but aside from possibility that OP’s child is not ready for that type of rigor, I do wonder whether the gap that is created through enrichment of other AAP kids, while neglecting the necessary instruction of those who did not have enrichment lead to the outcome that she is seeing. I see her story (and many comments here) as a cautionary tale for other parents.

[Anonymous]

Not saying the concepts are trivial. At this level the teachers are well trained enough to be able to cover them the proper way they should be taught. Just saying that they are covered but it is easy to miss if the student is not paying attention.

We are in Madison pyramid and have a close friend at Oakton pyramid and it is pretty much the same. I like to complain about FCPS as much as anyone here, lot of things they should be doing better, but I am pretty impressed with with actual teaching at least in AAP center schools. They absolutely cover the material and teach it the right way (number sense....MCT...).

I strongly suspect not paying attention is the main problem. This is one thing I ask when I go for a parent teacher meeting. Is my child paying attention in class? From several such meetings with different teachers, it is pretty obvious that this is a big problem.

If a child is not paying attention frequently for whatever reason, dont you think they would likely be falling behind?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, are you at LLIV or AAP Center? And, none of your 3 AAP kids ever competed in any academic field and prepared for that competition (which would qualify as enrichment)?


And remember the main topic of this thread: OP’s child is struggling in MS math AAP and the question is why and what to do about that?

I don’t know what is true in OP’s case, but aside from possibility that OP’s child is not ready for that type of rigor, I do wonder whether the gap that is created through enrichment of other AAP kids, while neglecting the necessary instruction of those who did not have enrichment lead to the outcome that she is seeing. I see her story (and many comments here) as a cautionary tale for other parents.

As I am saying, it is very likely that not paying attention is the main problem. That is what I would caution other parents, make sure your child is paying attention. Ask the teacher, she would be very glad you did. Instead of rushing to supplement. Which is such an enormously inefficient use of student's time. Use that time for things they are not going to do at school.

[Anonymous]

I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to have a good grasp of the strengths and weaknesses of most AAP ES students.

While there could be somewhere some who are failing, I haven’t met parents of any failing AAP students just yet. No one I talked with feels there is a need for supplementing either.

Math enrichment at our school implies learning math outside of the school altogether and often in an environment that is far more demanding and comprehensive than the AAP school math itself. These are the kids that go to regional and international competitions. The stronger the group of the students, the more likely is your “exclusively-learning-at-school” kid to “struggle - as compared to the rest of the class” (as in not get 100%, or get a 3 instead of a 4) when teacher bypasses instruction simply because majority of students learned the topic somewhere else.

By the time Middle School comes, the knowledge gap becomes an obstacle to take higher level math courses. And this is not because your kid did not pay attention, but because they were expected to learn many concepts outside of the school and their parents thought they can just rely on the school.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that if you are not doing any enrichment, you shouldn’t do AAP math at all because they are flying over some important math concepts that are covered at a better pace in GenEd. By the time your kid reaches Middle School they will have to go back to the same level of math courses as kids who did not attend AAP program at all. But, you do you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to have a good grasp of the strengths and weaknesses of most AAP ES students.

While there could be somewhere some who are failing, I haven’t met parents of any failing AAP students just yet. No one I talked with feels there is a need for supplementing either.

Math enrichment at our school implies learning math outside of the school altogether and often in an environment that is far more demanding and comprehensive than the AAP school math itself. These are the kids that go to regional and international competitions. The stronger the group of the students, the more likely is your “exclusively-learning-at-school” kid to “struggle - as compared to the rest of the class” (as in not get 100%, or get a 3 instead of a 4) when teacher bypasses instruction simply because majority of students learned the topic somewhere else.

By the time Middle School comes, the knowledge gap becomes an obstacle to take higher level math courses. And this is not because your kid did not pay attention, but because they were expected to learn many concepts outside of the school and their parents thought they can just rely on the school.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that if you are not doing any enrichment, you shouldn’t do AAP math at all because they are flying over some important math concepts that are covered at a better pace in GenEd. By the time your kid reaches Middle School they will have to go back to the same level of math courses as kids who did not attend AAP program at all. But, you do you.

This is truly nuts. As someone else posted, this isn't rocket science. It's 3rd 4th, 6th grade math. You "AOPS" "math competition" posters need to get over yourselves. And consider complaining about the lousy instruction from your DC's teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to have a good grasp of the strengths and weaknesses of most AAP ES students.

While there could be somewhere some who are failing, I haven’t met parents of any failing AAP students just yet. No one I talked with feels there is a need for supplementing either.

Math enrichment at our school implies learning math outside of the school altogether and often in an environment that is far more demanding and comprehensive than the AAP school math itself. These are the kids that go to regional and international competitions. The stronger the group of the students, the more likely is your “exclusively-learning-at-school” kid to “struggle - as compared to the rest of the class” (as in not get 100%, or get a 3 instead of a 4) when teacher bypasses instruction simply because majority of students learned the topic somewhere else.

By the time Middle School comes, the knowledge gap becomes an obstacle to take higher level math courses. And this is not because your kid did not pay attention, but because they were expected to learn many concepts outside of the school and their parents thought they can just rely on the school.

As a matter of fact, I would argue that if you are not doing any enrichment, you shouldn’t do AAP math at all because they are flying over some important math concepts that are covered at a better pace in GenEd. By the time your kid reaches Middle School they will have to go back to the same level of math courses as kids who did not attend AAP program at all. But, you do you.

This is truly nuts. As someone else posted, this isn't rocket science. It's 3rd 4th, 6th grade math. You "AOPS" "math competition" posters need to get over yourselves. And consider complaining about the lousy instruction from your DC's teachers.

I am not complaining. Math at school reinforces fundamental skills for DS. The math class at RSM dives into the fundamentals and builds on them nicely. It is challenging and stretches DS. The math competition class at RSM is what DS loves. It is where he learns new material and gets to discuss how he approaches math with other kids and the teacher. It is the math that is challenging and fun. He loves the competitions. It all works together. He is at a school where only a few kids attend AoPS or RSM. No one is flying through the math. But he loves math and asks to do the extra math.

I know that the 6th grade last SOL had some pass advances and no one in his class failed the SOL. DS doesn’t talk about videos being shown and immediate quizzes or anything like that.