Boundary study question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

I’m not going to say 10% proficient is great, no. But there’s a pretty big difference between a school that doesn’t work for anyone and a school that works for some kids, albeit fewer than we’d like. The second kind of school has something to build on.

And the difference between 0% and 10% may be particularly relevant in light of a point made on the last page, that Eliot-Hine is 10% white. A DC school where most of the white kids don’t test proficient is indeed underperforming, as that poster was arguing. Instead it looks like Eliot-Hine may be something all too familiar in DC: yet another school where demographics are destiny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

I’m not going to say 10% proficient is great, no. But there’s a pretty big difference between a school that doesn’t work for anyone and a school that works for some kids, albeit fewer than we’d like. The second kind of school has something to build on.

And the difference between 0% and 10% may be particularly relevant in light of a point made on the last page, that Eliot-Hine is 10% white. A DC school where most of the white kids don’t test proficient is indeed underperforming, as that poster was arguing. Instead it looks like Eliot-Hine may be something all too familiar in DC: yet another school where demographics are destiny.

Well, I think Eliot-Hine had a bad year last year and is a little better this year. They had 15.9 percent proficient on the math PARCC, which is bad but not terrible relative to demographics.

But still-- it's really hard to believe DCPS is effectively delivering on-grade and advanced coursework in light of these scores. I'm not someone who thinks the PARCC test is that great, or that testing can be taken at face value. But they have to give us feeder parents *some* evidence that the IB curriculum is being implemented with fidelity (as the saying goes), and that there is actually on-grade-level stuff happening in the classroom. Saying "Take our word for it until your child attends, despite our godawful test scores" is just not good enough. And that's why people don't enroll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

I’m not going to say 10% proficient is great, no. But there’s a pretty big difference between a school that doesn’t work for anyone and a school that works for some kids, albeit fewer than we’d like. The second kind of school has something to build on.

And the difference between 0% and 10% may be particularly relevant in light of a point made on the last page, that Eliot-Hine is 10% white. A DC school where most of the white kids don’t test proficient is indeed underperforming, as that poster was arguing. Instead it looks like Eliot-Hine may be something all too familiar in DC: yet another school where demographics are destiny.

Re: that last statement of demographics are destiny, a prior poster on the PARCC thread from last week (that thread has current data, myschooldc is still referencing the prior year) pulled out the data below with regards who what percent of a specific subgroup scored 4/5 on PARCC.
Race/Ethnicity White - ELA:
Hardy: 86%
Deal: 92%
Eliot Hine: >95%

Race/Ethnicity White - Math:
Hardy - DS, too small to report
Deal: 84%
Eliot-Hine: 86%

I am not sure if our city is worse or on par with other cities with regards to the achievement gap between sub groups, but it breaks my heart and is a much more complex problem than class size or types of programs at a school. (for those of you who have not yet waded into that data, this dashboard is bit more user friendly than the huge spreadsheet OSSE uploaded last week https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash)

About the IB topic, from what I have heard, the current principal at Eliot Hine (who has been there 6 years now I believe) has been pretty transparent that when she first started there was a lot of room to grow, but that they have been putting a lot of effort into training, shifting frameworks, etc. But I agree with the original poster who said that the boundary committee folks should think about which elementary/middle/high schools feed into each other so the programs can build on each other.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the Empowerk12 link!

[Anonymous]

I don't really understand why people think comparing performance of white kids answers the question parents are raising. People want their child to recieve actually on-grade or advanced instruction, and producing a tiny percentage of kids on grade level is an obstacle to that. How can we know that the actual coursework is appropriate?

If there aren't enough kids doing well to support an actually advanced class, people aren't going to enroll. And if the advanced class would be disproportionately white, DCPS isn't going to be willing to offer it. So people don't enroll. It really doesn't matter if 86% of the white kids are doing well, if you don't have the course offerings that people want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

I’m not going to say 10% proficient is great, no. But there’s a pretty big difference between a school that doesn’t work for anyone and a school that works for some kids, albeit fewer than we’d like. The second kind of school has something to build on.

And the difference between 0% and 10% may be particularly relevant in light of a point made on the last page, that Eliot-Hine is 10% white. A DC school where most of the white kids don’t test proficient is indeed underperforming, as that poster was arguing. Instead it looks like Eliot-Hine may be something all too familiar in DC: yet another school where demographics are destiny.

Re: that last statement of demographics are destiny, a prior poster on the PARCC thread from last week (that thread has current data, myschooldc is still referencing the prior year) pulled out the data below with regards who what percent of a specific subgroup scored 4/5 on PARCC.
Race/Ethnicity White - ELA:
Hardy: 86%
Deal: 92%
Eliot Hine: >95%

Race/Ethnicity White - Math:
Hardy - DS, too small to report
Deal: 84%
Eliot-Hine: 86%

I am not sure if our city is worse or on par with other cities with regards to the achievement gap between sub groups, but it breaks my heart and is a much more complex problem than class size or types of programs at a school. (for those of you who have not yet waded into that data, this dashboard is bit more user friendly than the huge spreadsheet OSSE uploaded last week https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash)

About the IB topic, from what I have heard, the current principal at Eliot Hine (who has been there 6 years now I believe) has been pretty transparent that when she first started there was a lot of room to grow, but that they have been putting a lot of effort into training, shifting frameworks, etc. But I agree with the original poster who said that the boundary committee folks should think about which elementary/middle/high schools feed into each other so the programs can build on each other.

Dude, no. What you're telling us with this data is that Eliot-Hine is doing quite badly with the majority of its population. And the number of white kids is so small that the scores are not very meaningful, so it's not as reassuring as you think it is. For Deal to have 84% of white kids on grade level is a lot of kids-- hundreds of kids in each grade. For EH, 86% of white kids is like 25 kids total. Not enough to support advanced course offerings. So I really have not the slightest clue why people make this argument. Being white is not some special magic thing that makes your kid not mind sitting in below-grade-level classes all day. It's fine for you to do policy analysis, but some of us are actually trying to place our kid in a school that will meet their needs. It's a totally different thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the record, 10% of kids at Eliot Hine are testing proficient in math.

https://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Eliot-Hine+Middle+School

The My School profiles have what might charitably be called a glitch where they mark sections as “n < 10” when what they mean is “data suppressed.” If you add the students scoring 1-3 on the My School profile, you will see they do not sum to 100%.

Are you saying that it's not actually less than 10 kids? So like they might have had 15 kids scoring a 4, but chose to suppress the data anyway?

Those percentages are percentages of kids who took the PARCC test. Anyone who took the MSAA, or who sat out the PARCC for whatever reason, wouldn't be included. So it's 10% of the kids who took the PARCC, which is smaller than the total reported population of 317.

Yes. Just compare the DCPS profile to the My School profile. The percent of students scoring 1, 2, and 3 are the same, and they sum to 90%.

If 90% of test takers scored 1, 2, or 3, as My School reports, what percent scored 4 or 5? The answer is 10%.

I believe what happened here is that less than 10 students scored 5s, but more than 10 scored 4. If OSSE reported the number of 4s, a person like me could easily compute the exact number of students scoring 5. Which would raise privacy concerns. So they suppress the exact number of students scoring 4.

I see. Thank you for your input. But still, 10% of the population cannot be more than 30 kids total, right? Because out of 317 kids, some take MSAA. And if those 30 kids are divided across 6th, 7th, and 8th, you've got 10 kids on or above grade level in each academic year. So that's still pretty terrible performance for a school that claims to offer IB curriculum and on- and above-grade-level content.

I’m not going to say 10% proficient is great, no. But there’s a pretty big difference between a school that doesn’t work for anyone and a school that works for some kids, albeit fewer than we’d like. The second kind of school has something to build on.

And the difference between 0% and 10% may be particularly relevant in light of a point made on the last page, that Eliot-Hine is 10% white. A DC school where most of the white kids don’t test proficient is indeed underperforming, as that poster was arguing. Instead it looks like Eliot-Hine may be something all too familiar in DC: yet another school where demographics are destiny.

Re: that last statement of demographics are destiny, a prior poster on the PARCC thread from last week (that thread has current data, myschooldc is still referencing the prior year) pulled out the data below with regards who what percent of a specific subgroup scored 4/5 on PARCC.
Race/Ethnicity White - ELA:
Hardy: 86%
Deal: 92%
Eliot Hine: >95%

Race/Ethnicity White - Math:
Hardy - DS, too small to report
Deal: 84%
Eliot-Hine: 86%

I am not sure if our city is worse or on par with other cities with regards to the achievement gap between sub groups, but it breaks my heart and is a much more complex problem than class size or types of programs at a school. (for those of you who have not yet waded into that data, this dashboard is bit more user friendly than the huge spreadsheet OSSE uploaded last week https://www.empowerk12.org/data-dashboard-source/dc-parcc-dash)

About the IB topic, from what I have heard, the current principal at Eliot Hine (who has been there 6 years now I believe) has been pretty transparent that when she first started there was a lot of room to grow, but that they have been putting a lot of effort into training, shifting frameworks, etc. But I agree with the original poster who said that the boundary committee folks should think about which elementary/middle/high schools feed into each other so the programs can build on each other.

Dude, no. What you're telling us with this data is that Eliot-Hine is doing quite badly with the majority of its population. And the number of white kids is so small that the scores are not very meaningful, so it's not as reassuring as you think it is. For Deal to have 84% of white kids on grade level is a lot of kids-- hundreds of kids in each grade. For EH, 86% of white kids is like 25 kids total. Not enough to support advanced course offerings. So I really have not the slightest clue why people make this argument. Being white is not some special magic thing that makes your kid not mind sitting in below-grade-level classes all day. It's fine for you to do policy analysis, but some of us are actually trying to place our kid in a school that will meet their needs. It's a totally different thing.

+1000. I don’t care about race breakdown. I care about overall scores.

The people touting this BS try to push the agenda that their poorly performing school isn’t all that bad when it is. Also since classes are not on grade level they are likely supplementing. Where at a school with large percentage of kids at grade level, classes are actually taught at grade level.

[Anonymous]

More questions for the Boundary study people: Will any other middles be redistricted to MacArthur or JR? Or are you saving spots for OOB kids.

[Anonymous]

The committee hasn’t discussed things at that level of detail yet, so nobody knows the answer. At the last meeting the consultants said they would devise various scenarios and then the committee would discuss in September. So that will be where some of these details become on the table.

But I’d say any requests for another MS to feed JR or MacArthur will run into a fundamental question of what is the citywide vision. It’s not possible for everyone who wants to feed to those schools to do it - or Deal & Hardy. “Alice Deal for All” does not literally mean Deal and its HS are so large that all DCPS students go there.

So if some more people got rights to WOTP schools then what does that mean for the next group of people one neighborhood farther east? The ideal scenario is that eventually othet HS become comparable in reputation (some educators argue they are already as good in actual education, though that’s tough to really evaluate rigorously). Is there a path to achieve that?

Moving the next set of parents to have rights across the park doesn’t lead to a gradual chain of future actions that eventually leads to a stable education system - the only stable end point in that direction is “Deal for All Literally” which is impossible.

So, what is the action the committee can take this year which puts the system on a trajectory to continue a positive direction, from the viewpoint of all parents in all wards, that then continues the next time boundaries change and the next time and so on?

[Anonymous]

So what does "Alice Deal for All" mean? The mayor said it. You tell us?

The other high schools are not as good in actual education, because they do not offer the same coursework. Their "advanced" classes are only pretend-advanced.

Again, the only thing that will cause change is to credibly promise and deliver coursework that is on and above grade level to children who are at that level. That will make a difference. And you can do that now, if you are willing to spend the money.

[Anonymous]

I feel like the only thing we get out of these boundary committees is people trying to re-animate the zombie corpse of "choice sets". A stupid idea that doesn't really help anyone, it merely shuffles kids around schools that are still going to be mediocre.

[Anonymous]

Here's an idea, take the money you are spending on these idiot consultants and their "choice sets" BS, and spend it on hiring more teachers instead. Then we could have teachers instead of unqualified subs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The committee hasn’t discussed things at that level of detail yet, so nobody knows the answer. At the last meeting the consultants said they would devise various scenarios and then the committee would discuss in September. So that will be where some of these details become on the table.

But I’d say any requests for another MS to feed JR or MacArthur will run into a fundamental question of what is the citywide vision. It’s not possible for everyone who wants to feed to those schools to do it - or Deal & Hardy. “Alice Deal for All” does not literally mean Deal and its HS are so large that all DCPS students go there.

So if some more people got rights to WOTP schools then what does that mean for the next group of people one neighborhood farther east? The ideal scenario is that eventually othet HS become comparable in reputation (some educators argue they are already as good in actual education, though that’s tough to really evaluate rigorously). Is there a path to achieve that?

Moving the next set of parents to have rights across the park doesn’t lead to a gradual chain of future actions that eventually leads to a stable education system - the only stable end point in that direction is “Deal for All Literally” which is impossible.

So, what is the action the committee can take this year which puts the system on a trajectory to continue a positive direction, from the viewpoint of all parents in all wards, that then continues the next time boundaries change and the next time and so on?

Plus, what about those of us who don't want Alice Deal? Deal isn't a perfect school. Some of us want an immersion MS, some want an MS with a strong STEM focus, some want an MS with a strong arts focus -- there needs to multiple excellent MS that aren't the Deal model.