What are your thoughts about Anne Boleyn?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like the Not Just the Tudors podcast.

Queens of England podcast is really great for deep cleaning your house with headphones on. You can start at the beginning of the British monarchy and go straight through I believe. Tbh my interest in British history basically ends when Henry dies.

It seems that whenever there is a Kings of England question on Jeopardy, the answer is usually Henry 8th. There are many more interesting stories out there. It's a bit like King Tut getting all the Egypt press, when there is much more there to learn about that civilization. The Charles I/Oliver Cromwell/Charles II period is fascinating, as well as the Victorian age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I love it when the experts appear on DCUM. MUCH more interesting.

What are your favorite non-fiction books about the Tudors and Anne Boleyn? (Or have you read literally anything beyond Philippa Gregory?) I was typing fast and swapped out one person’s name in the middle of about five different thoughts.

Nonfic:

The Winter King: Henry VII and the Dawn of Tudor England (Thomas Penn)

The Final Year of Anne Boleyn (Natalie Grueninger)

George Boleyn: Tudor Poet, Diplomat, and Courtier (Claire Cherry and Claire Ridgeway)

Chris Skidmore is an easy nonfiction read. He goes more Henry VII and Edward VI and beyond than Henry VIII

If you want a good historian snipefest, check out the Eric Ives/GW Bernard controversy. Bernard’s book, Fatal Attractions, lays out the premise that Anne was guilty of adultery and Henry was responsible for planting reformist ideas in Anne’s head. Ives, considered by some the leading AB biographer, is like, n-n-n-n-n-no way. (Couldn’t resist the reference to Six.) And then both of them have piled on Retha Warnicke’s hypothesis that Anne miscarried a deformed baby in Jan 1536. That one, to me, is unknowable … could have happened, could be a poisonous rumor. It’s not like Chapuys was in the room to see it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think she played politics (converting the king to Protestant) and lost.

She didn’t convert him to Protestant. She was also a catholic - but he wanted a divorce and to remarry and the Pope didn’t let him so he had a tantrum and declared himself the head of a new church.
He was obviously a terror of a person who was so used to getting his own way that he could not fathom anyone who stood up to him (not that many did, Pope excepted) or threatened him in any way. He would kill those who tried.

Except there’s evidence that Anne was more interested in the reformation from a theological perspective than Henry was. For Henry, it was all about power & money (apart from the divorce issue, control of the immense resources of the English monasteries).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I love it when the experts appear on DCUM. MUCH more interesting.

What are your favorite non-fiction books about the Tudors and Anne Boleyn? (Or have you read literally anything beyond Philippa Gregory?) I was typing fast and swapped out one person’s name in the middle of about five different thoughts.

NP here. I loved Six Wives by David Starkey.

NP. Agree.

Also enjoyed Thomas Cromwell by Diarmid MacCulloch.

Also Young & Damned & Fair by Gareth Russell about Catherine Howard

[Anonymous]

NP. This is a great thread.

For you podcast fans, The Rest is History covers some of this, and a lot more too (currently they're doing Paris in 1968).

Their take is that no, nobody deserves to be beheaded on trumped-up charges. But also, Henry VIII's position was a lot more precarious than we appreciate now. He was a son of a usurper and was under a lot of pressure to solidify the Tudors' rule.

Also, not sure if RIH covers it, but her family were hugely ambitious and were probably pushing the marriage. That said, she does seem to have had more agency than some women of her era, if not complete agency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m descended from her sister Mary. I’m appreciating this thread.

My understanding is that her parents were so ambitious that they were willing to risk their children. But true - that was the nature of the times.

Is Henry your grandpapa?

[Anonymous]

I can honestly say that I have not had any thoughts about Anne Boleyn since high school (which was 40 years ago) and I don't really remember what my thoughts about her were back then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can honestly say that I have not had any thoughts about Anne Boleyn since high school (which was 40 years ago) and I don't really remember what my thoughts about her were back then.

Bless your heart.

[Anonymous]

I think Anne could have just succumbed to being another mistress, like her sister. But she aimed for marriage and that resulted in everything that came after.

Breaking with Rome, seizing the monasteries, establishing the Church of England
Anne's death
the subsequent marriages, deaths and divorces of Henry's other wives
Mary becoming "bloody" Mary
Elizabeth coming to the throne.
And then of course, Elizabeth having no heir meant her Catholic, Scottish nephew became King and THAT started a whole other awful chain of events.

Gotta say Elizabeth was a kick a$$ ruler IMHO, my favorite monarch.

Henry on the other hand was a sociopath.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can honestly say that I have not had any thoughts about Anne Boleyn since high school (which was 40 years ago) and I don't really remember what my thoughts about her were back then.

Bless your heart.

This thread was cute until you shat on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m descended from her sister Mary. I’m appreciating this thread.

My understanding is that her parents were so ambitious that they were willing to risk their children. But true - that was the nature of the times.

Is Henry your grandpapa?

NP here, He could very well be. IF it's true that a few of Mary's kids were his, there's a very good chance his descendants are with us today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I love it when the experts appear on DCUM. MUCH more interesting.

What are your favorite non-fiction books about the Tudors and Anne Boleyn? (Or have you read literally anything beyond Philippa Gregory?) I was typing fast and swapped out one person’s name in the middle of about five different thoughts.

NP here. I loved Six Wives by David Starkey.

NP. Agree.

Also enjoyed Thomas Cromwell by Diarmid MacCulloch.

Also Young & Damned & Fair by Gareth Russell about Catherine Howard

Same. Both are great books. Looking forward to the upcoming release of Gareth Russell’s book about Hampton Court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m descended from her sister Mary. I’m appreciating this thread.

My understanding is that her parents were so ambitious that they were willing to risk their children. But true - that was the nature of the times.

Is Henry your grandpapa?

NP here, He could very well be. IF it's true that a few of Mary's kids were his, there's a very good chance his descendants are with us today.

That would be a fun genealogy project.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can honestly say that I have not had any thoughts about Anne Boleyn since high school (which was 40 years ago) and I don't really remember what my thoughts about her were back then.

Bless your heart.

This thread was cute until you shat on it.

Well, the PP came onto the thread to say she hadn’t thought of Anne Boleyn in 40 years. OK?? Thanks for sharing….?

[Anonymous]

Catherine Carey, Elizabeth's "cousin" via Mary Boleyn, (likely half sister) had like 15 kids and has many descendants today.