What are your thoughts about Anne Boleyn?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read history. What happened to her wasn't unusual. People who played politics, both men and women, put themselves at risk of bloody endings.

Her failure wasn't coming up with a boy but she went after the king. Had she been content to be wife of a squire or lord she'd have a different ending.

Actually, "what happened to Anne Boleyn" was basically unusual all the way through. She essentially maintained a "doing everything but" relationship with the king of England for seven years - a king who was considered to be divine and entitled to anything he wanted.

AFTER Anne, it was immediately clear to all queens that they were only as safe as their ability to bear male children quickly and tolerate maltreatment from their husbands in various ways. But before her? No, not normal.

Also re the bolded, you say that as though it was entirely her choice whether and who she married. Once the king expressed an interest, it was in the family's best interest to try to make that go well. They did it with one daughter and thought they could up the ante with Anne. It didn't work because she didn't have a son, but it's not like ANY of it was within her control.

Signed,

I think about this A LOT

Agree all around. People want to look at it as Anne versus Henry, or Anne versus Catherine, but the truth was that Anne never had much agency at all. Whatever politics or manipulations she engaged in were undertaken to try and make the best of her situation.

It is irrelevant whether Anne was a great person. Even if she was conniving and manipulative, she did not deserve what she got (not her marriage and not her murder), and you have to ask yourself to what degree she was the product of her circumstances.

Similar feelings about Jane Grey, who had even less control over what occurred and was murdered primarily for doing what she was told.

These women deserved to live lives of dignity and self-satisfaction, as everyone deserves. They were denied that. Of course she was unjustly murdered. What the hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

To be fair, while women were oppressed in absolutely countless ways, men were being executed left and right on the whims of the king and the Church, too. Thomas More, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cromwell, all the men executed alongside Anne…of course this was all going on long before Henry, but he and his father really went off the rails. They never felt safe on the throne. The boys in the Tower, and both Plantagenet cousins…Elizabeth certainly kept it going.

[Anonymous]

I think she made a great cameo in Blues Travelers “Hook”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

To be fair, while women were oppressed in absolutely countless ways, men were being executed left and right on the whims of the king and the Church, too. Thomas More, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cromwell, all the men executed alongside Anne…of course this was all going on long before Henry, but he and his father really went off the rails. They never felt safe on the throne. The boys in the Tower, and both Plantagenet cousins…Elizabeth certainly kept it going.

Yes, the violence was certainly not restricted to women.

However, each of those men had real power within the monarchy. Not as much power as the king, but real power. Each of them pursued and achieved positions of power close to the king, as trusted advisors. They received titled and money in return for their loyalty to him, but then lost their lives when they fell out of favor. But the CHOSE to pursue those positions, and none of them had to have sex with Henry or bear him children in order to maintain his favor. They just had to agree with him and do what he told them to do, a job they willingly signed up for .

This is very different from the women who were married off to him at his behest and that of their families, and whose "service" was to let this diseased tyrant of a man try to impregnate them. It's very, very different.

What happened to Henry's wives, including Anne, was a violation of the most grotesque sort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

To be fair, while women were oppressed in absolutely countless ways, men were being executed left and right on the whims of the king and the Church, too. Thomas More, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cromwell, all the men executed alongside Anne…of course this was all going on long before Henry, but he and his father really went off the rails. They never felt safe on the throne. The boys in the Tower, and both Plantagenet cousins…Elizabeth certainly kept it going.

Yep. In the Game of Thrones either you win or you die. There is no middle ground.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I love it when the experts appear on DCUM. MUCH more interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

To be fair, while women were oppressed in absolutely countless ways, men were being executed left and right on the whims of the king and the Church, too. Thomas More, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cromwell, all the men executed alongside Anne…of course this was all going on long before Henry, but he and his father really went off the rails. They never felt safe on the throne. The boys in the Tower, and both Plantagenet cousins…Elizabeth certainly kept it going.

Yes, the violence was certainly not restricted to women.

However, each of those men had real power within the monarchy. Not as much power as the king, but real power. Each of them pursued and achieved positions of power close to the king, as trusted advisors. They received titled and money in return for their loyalty to him, but then lost their lives when they fell out of favor. But the CHOSE to pursue those positions, and none of them had to have sex with Henry or bear him children in order to maintain his favor. They just had to agree with him and do what he told them to do, a job they willingly signed up for .

This is very different from the women who were married off to him at his behest and that of their families, and whose "service" was to let this diseased tyrant of a man try to impregnate them. It's very, very different.

What happened to Henry's wives, including Anne, was a violation of the most grotesque sort.

When did I ever say otherwise?!

[Anonymous]

She had 6 fingers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I love it when the experts appear on DCUM. MUCH more interesting.

What are your favorite non-fiction books about the Tudors and Anne Boleyn? (Or have you read literally anything beyond Philippa Gregory?) I was typing fast and swapped out one person’s name in the middle of about five different thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, she was wrongfully murdered. She was accused of infidelity to an insane degree, with a half-dozen men, including her own brother. It’s been reviewed and historians agree that she was not guilty of infidelity.

She was probably guilty of having a pre-contract to Thomas Howard, but it’s not her fault that Archbishop Cranmer worked with Henry and the Howards and the Boleyns to have it put aside.

She was absolutely no angel, but she also helped tear down Catholicsm’s iron grip on all aspects of life in that country at that time. She helped to crack the door that her daughter Elizabeth blew down, creating a country where people had more access to religious freedom, more access to reading Christian texts in English, more personal freedom.

She also helped create a world where women could be ennobled and own land in their own right. She is the first woman to be granted a patent of nobility in her own right.

If you are unaware of how much she directly worked to establish Protestantism in England—alongside Cromwell, who eventually turned into her enemy—you need to read a few of her modern biographies. She oversaw an entire council that was a precursor to Henry’s reformation.

Thomas Howard was her uncle. She wasn't pre-contracted to him. Do you mean Henry Percy?

I do! Thank you!

I think that was an example of her trying to set her own course and the patriarchy nope-ing her head right off.

I think Anne Boleyn's execution was the point at which it was made clear to women in England that they would NEVER be safe. It doesn't matter how much he loves you. Doesn't matter if you come from a really powerful family. Doesn't matter if you're the Catholic Church. That's pretty grim.

To be fair, while women were oppressed in absolutely countless ways, men were being executed left and right on the whims of the king and the Church, too. Thomas More, Cardinal Wolsey, Thomas Cromwell, all the men executed alongside Anne…of course this was all going on long before Henry, but he and his father really went off the rails. They never felt safe on the throne. The boys in the Tower, and both Plantagenet cousins…Elizabeth certainly kept it going.

Yes, the violence was certainly not restricted to women.

However, each of those men had real power within the monarchy. Not as much power as the king, but real power. Each of them pursued and achieved positions of power close to the king, as trusted advisors. They received titled and money in return for their loyalty to him, but then lost their lives when they fell out of favor. But the CHOSE to pursue those positions, and none of them had to have sex with Henry or bear him children in order to maintain his favor. They just had to agree with him and do what he told them to do, a job they willingly signed up for .

This is very different from the women who were married off to him at his behest and that of their families, and whose "service" was to let this diseased tyrant of a man try to impregnate them. It's very, very different.

What happened to Henry's wives, including Anne, was a violation of the most grotesque sort.

When did I ever say otherwise?!

You were equating the beheadings of More, Cromwell, and other political advisors to the overall experiences of Anne Boleyn and other wives. It's true they were all beheaded, and that's a reflection of the tyrannical nature of these monarchs. But what happened to Anne, her cousin Katherine Howard, and later Jane Grey, is different. These women were treated as chattel their entire lives before being murdered. It's just very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She had 6 fingers.

total?

[Anonymous]

Her daughter Elizabeth was a force. Some of that must have been Anne

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read history. What happened to her wasn't unusual. People who played politics, both men and women, put themselves at risk of bloody endings.

Her failure wasn't coming up with a boy but she went after the king. Had she been content to be wife of a squire or lord she'd have a different ending.

She wanted to be the wife of Lord Henry Percy.