AP 3 in a sea of 4/5s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 3 on an AP exam is passing and gets credit at many, many colleges. I wish your kid got a 5 as well, but wow. It isn't like they failed out of school. Questioning college readiness because they took a college test in HS and passed?

I need to log off.

My DD got a 3 and I was thrilled. It is her first exam. over 30% got a 1 or 2. Breathe.

Same. My kid got an A- in her AP classes and scored 3s. She’s fine and so are we. She does well in class and crappy on standardized tests. Outgoing kid who’s comfortable with herself. I feel lucky to have such a well-adjusted kid.

She’s plans to apply to an Ivy this fall and has a really good shot. And if she doesn’t get in, she knows she will land somewhere else where she’ll be fine.

Ha ha if you really think your A- /3s kid has a “really good shot” at an Ivy. She has almost zero shot. Do you live under a rock?

maybe she has a hook?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is your fault. You are raising her in a high pressure and competitive environment and it’s not healthy. Why is she discussing AP exam scores with her friends? Why is she devastated over a damned 3? Is this really the way you want to raise her? I guarantee you a few years from now she’s going to be super bitter and blame you.

dp.. please. Kids pick up pressure from each other, not always the parents.

My kid is the exact same as OP's - 3 on APGov, A in the class. DC said they studied a lot. I never pressured DC to get more than a 3. In fact, I told DC that if they fail it, it's not the end of the world. DC took another AP and got a 2. DC cried over both scores because of how hard they studied but still got a bad score.

I comforted DC, and told them that it's possible that the way they studied wasn't really conducive to absorbing what they were reading. I won't go into how they studied, but I told DC that this wasn't the way to do it, but DC wouldn't listen to me.

Also, IMO, grade inflation is not helping. These kids think that because they got an A in the class that they know the material, but grade inflation means that their A may really be a B, and so on. IMO, it makes them over confident, and I think that this is what happened to my DC.

Now DC knows after learning the lesson the hard way - learn to study, and getting an A in the class means nothing. This part I blame the schools.

Not nice to tease like that.

lol.. it basically involved sitting for hours but with a lot of "breaks" in between, and short stints of reviewing and reading. I told DC that at work, when I need to really focus on something, I need at least 2 hours of uninterrupted time to really delve into and absorb the details. The short stints of studying with frequent breaks is not conducive to really absorbing the material, but what can we expect from the generation of tiktok and instant gratification.

Fortunately, DC is only 15 so they have time to learn how to focus... hopefully. I don't know if DC will actually heed my advice, though. They have a short term memory about lessons learned.

People slacked off studying long before TikTok was invented.

sure, but my point was that kids have less attention span these days due to the instant gratification of things like tiktok. I'm not calling out tiktok specifically, but just that the younger generation seems to not be able to hold their attention for anything longer than 5min at a time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is your fault. You are raising her in a high pressure and competitive environment and it’s not healthy. Why is she discussing AP exam scores with her friends? Why is she devastated over a damned 3? Is this really the way you want to raise her? I guarantee you a few years from now she’s going to be super bitter and blame you.

dp.. please. Kids pick up pressure from each other, not always the parents.

My kid is the exact same as OP's - 3 on APGov, A in the class. DC said they studied a lot. I never pressured DC to get more than a 3. In fact, I told DC that if they fail it, it's not the end of the world. DC took another AP and got a 2. DC cried over both scores because of how hard they studied but still got a bad score.

I comforted DC, and told them that it's possible that the way they studied wasn't really conducive to absorbing what they were reading. I won't go into how they studied, but I told DC that this wasn't the way to do it, but DC wouldn't listen to me.

Also, IMO, grade inflation is not helping. These kids think that because they got an A in the class that they know the material, but grade inflation means that their A may really be a B, and so on. IMO, it makes them over confident, and I think that this is what happened to my DC.

Now DC knows after learning the lesson the hard way - learn to study, and getting an A in the class means nothing. This part I blame the schools.

Not nice to tease like that.

lol.. it basically involved sitting for hours but with a lot of "breaks" in between, and short stints of reviewing and reading. I told DC that at work, when I need to really focus on something, I need at least 2 hours of uninterrupted time to really delve into and absorb the details. The short stints of studying with frequent breaks is not conducive to really absorbing the material, but what can we expect from the generation of tiktok and instant gratification.

Fortunately, DC is only 15 so they have time to learn how to focus... hopefully. I don't know if DC will actually heed my advice, though. They have a short term memory about lessons learned.

People slacked off studying long before TikTok was invented.

sure, but my point was that kids have less attention span these days due to the instant gratification of things like tiktok. I'm not calling out tiktok specifically, but just that the younger generation seems to not be able to hold their attention for anything longer than 5min at a time.

Nah. I'm 54 and I had MTV. Totally the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DD took her first AP exam (AP Gov) this year and scored a 3 after studying like crazy and earning an A in the class. She feels so defeated and embarrassed that all her friends (including those younger than her) received 4/5 scores. Please share some encouraging words. Nothing I say is getting through to her. We know she is a terrible test taker (3.94 UWGPA but bombed the PSAT) so this is nothing new, but it’s still discouraging and makes me wonder how prepared she really is for college.

DD who just graduated, also got an A on her first AP exam in 9th. She has now graduated with 12 APs the one 3 in AP Gov, seven 5s and two 4s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is your fault. You are raising her in a high pressure and competitive environment and it’s not healthy. Why is she discussing AP exam scores with her friends? Why is she devastated over a damned 3? Is this really the way you want to raise her? I guarantee you a few years from now she’s going to be super bitter and blame you.

dp.. please. Kids pick up pressure from each other, not always the parents.

My kid is the exact same as OP's - 3 on APGov, A in the class. DC said they studied a lot. I never pressured DC to get more than a 3. In fact, I told DC that if they fail it, it's not the end of the world. DC took another AP and got a 2. DC cried over both scores because of how hard they studied but still got a bad score.

I comforted DC, and told them that it's possible that the way they studied wasn't really conducive to absorbing what they were reading. I won't go into how they studied, but I told DC that this wasn't the way to do it, but DC wouldn't listen to me.

Also, IMO, grade inflation is not helping. These kids think that because they got an A in the class that they know the material, but grade inflation means that their A may really be a B, and so on. IMO, it makes them over confident, and I think that this is what happened to my DC.

Now DC knows after learning the lesson the hard way - learn to study, and getting an A in the class means nothing. This part I blame the schools.

Not nice to tease like that.

lol.. it basically involved sitting for hours but with a lot of "breaks" in between, and short stints of reviewing and reading. I told DC that at work, when I need to really focus on something, I need at least 2 hours of uninterrupted time to really delve into and absorb the details. The short stints of studying with frequent breaks is not conducive to really absorbing the material, but what can we expect from the generation of tiktok and instant gratification.

Fortunately, DC is only 15 so they have time to learn how to focus... hopefully. I don't know if DC will actually heed my advice, though. They have a short term memory about lessons learned.

People slacked off studying long before TikTok was invented.

sure, but my point was that kids have less attention span these days due to the instant gratification of things like tiktok. I'm not calling out tiktok specifically, but just that the younger generation seems to not be able to hold their attention for anything longer than 5min at a time.

Nah. I'm 54 and I had MTV. Totally the same.

? I'm 52, and it's not totally the same. MTV wasn't a streaming service. You had to wait for the videos to be played. So, not the same as a streaming service or social media.

[Anonymous]

Great news, OP! With the passing of HB 966, AP scores of 3 and higher must be accepted at all Maryland public universities! Your daughter earned herself college credit.

If it makes you feel better, my daughter scored a 2 in AP gov in 10th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

PP you've been responding to: That, I can agree with!

[Anonymous]

This is obviously outdated anecdata but I am a 37 year old mom reading this and wanted to chime in.

My twin brother studied for the AP tests, but probably not as much as I did. He consistently got threes.

I studied my butt off and happened to be good at standardized tests. I was able to cram, learned to game the tests to extent you can, and got 5s. However, I almost immediately forgot almost everything I learned.

We are both very successful and happy people and AP tests did not affect us in college or beyond.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great news, OP! With the passing of HB 966, AP scores of 3 and higher must be accepted at all Maryland public universities! Your daughter earned herself college credit.

If it makes you feel better, my daughter scored a 2 in AP gov in 10th grade.

At UMDCP, it only gets you a credit for an elective in that area. If you get a 3, you still have to take the class. My DC was upset about that. DC doesn't want to have to take the class in college. Also doesn't help that older DC got all 5s on their APs all throughout HS. This DC is a tough act to follow - academically gifted, if not really lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A 3 on an AP exam is passing and gets credit at many, many colleges. I wish your kid got a 5 as well, but wow. It isn't like they failed out of school. Questioning college readiness because they took a college test in HS and passed?

I need to log off.

My DD got a 3 and I was thrilled. It is her first exam. over 30% got a 1 or 2. Breathe.

Same. My kid got an A- in her AP classes and scored 3s. She’s fine and so are we. She does well in class and crappy on standardized tests. Outgoing kid who’s comfortable with herself. I feel lucky to have such a well-adjusted kid.

She’s plans to apply to an Ivy this fall and has a really good shot. And if she doesn’t get in, she knows she will land somewhere else where she’ll be fine.

Ha ha if you really think your A- /3s kid has a “really good shot” at an Ivy. She has almost zero shot. Do you live under a rock?

All will be revealed. I’ll let you know how it turns out. You have an awesome day.

Just FYI if she gets in (and I hope she does!) it’s not because she had a good shot. Hardly anyone has a good shot. If she gets in it’s because she got lucky.

Of course. There’s no doubt in our house about that. We hammer home that definition of luck being what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

[Anonymous]

My DD goes to a less affluent school and most of her friends scored 2s on AP Language and 2s or 3s on AP World history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great news, OP! With the passing of HB 966, AP scores of 3 and higher must be accepted at all Maryland public universities! Your daughter earned herself college credit.

If it makes you feel better, my daughter scored a 2 in AP gov in 10th grade.

Any references on this?

https://www.transfercredit.umd.edu/plc/APGenEd.pdf

Is still 2021 version and no mention of any "3"
At UMDCP, it only gets you a credit for an elective in that area. If you get a 3, you still have to take the class. My DC was upset about that. DC doesn't want to have to take the class in college. Also doesn't help that older DC got all 5s on their APs all throughout HS. This DC is a tough act to follow - academically gifted, if not really lazy.

[Anonymous]

Oops bad quote

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great news, OP! With the passing of HB 966, AP scores of 3 and higher must be accepted at all Maryland public universities! Your daughter earned herself college credit.

If it makes you feel better, my daughter scored a 2 in AP gov in 10th grade.

At UMDCP, it only gets you a credit for an elective in that area. If you get a 3, you still have to take the class. My DC was upset about that. DC doesn't want to have to take the class in college. Also doesn't help that older DC got all 5s on their APs all throughout HS. This DC is a tough act to follow - academically gifted, if not really lazy.

Any references on this?

https://www.transfercredit.umd.edu/plc/APGenEd.pdf

Is still 2021 version and no mention of any "3"

[Anonymous]

This is not an AP test issue. This is a high pressure schools issue.