Church attendance continues to plummet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

100%. A sense of community is important to life. Going to church is one way of getting community. Read Bowling Alone. I think it's sad how the US has lots it sense of community.

People don't want to spend an hour every Sunday hearing that everything they believe is evil. Churches got political and it boosted attendance in some regions, but it also made Christianity abhorrent to people in other regions

I don't really have that issue, but there seems to be more a focus on the world is bad rather than how to live in the world. I almost walked out last time I heard we are not made for this world but for God's. That type of statement is a staple. Umm. We are made for this world too. We sin even if we are Christian. I think there is too much divisiveness of Christians verses the world rather than how to be a good person and how to live in the world as a Christian. Yes I want to get to heaven, but I don't see how I would do it hating the world for my entire life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

100%. A sense of community is important to life. Going to church is one way of getting community. Read Bowling Alone. I think it's sad how the US has lots it sense of community.

People don't want to spend an hour every Sunday hearing that everything they believe is evil. Churches got political and it boosted attendance in some regions, but it also made Christianity abhorrent to people in other regions

I wonder to what extent, proportion wise, this is accurate. (I wrote the above comment you're quoting) The only way my church has gotten political is they've hung a LGBTQ pride flag in the Youth Group recreation area (the updated one, with the brown stripes, too).

It's shocking how detached from reality some people's preconceptions are.

I used to be a methodist. We had a string of progressive pastors, and then got a conservative one. It only took them about a year to drive away most of the congregation. They're gone now, but I'm not interested in seeing if the new guy is better. That's the risk they run by constantly rotating pastors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Can you expand upon the idea that not attending church and pulling back from other organizations means that people are lonely and isolated?

Which part is unclear to you? Do you want a series of links to articles citing research about the rapidly increasing rates of depression, loneliness, and isolation? Do you want demographic links demonstrating the increasing percentages of single-person households? Do you want links about the decline of club and organization and institutional membership?

Do you really need me to Google these things for you?

Or are you skeptical of the idea that all of these trends are related, and that the prevalence of one is a contributing cause of another?

No -I was interested in your perception. e.g., Is it from internet links? Are you experiencing it yourself?

I've definitely read about it. It's been covered extensively for at least a decade in media ranging from NYT, certainly, to The Atlantic. That Bowling Alone guy -- what's his name, he's a long time Harvard person -- has written about it.

In my own life? Definitely, compared to the lives my parents and their friends led at this age, our cohorts are much less involved in community organizations and clubs, and it's all Travel Soccer and Dance Rehearsal seven days a week, in some form or another.

Thanks, sounds like you're saying it's more specifically kid-centered now than more broadly community-centered, as it was when you were growing up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

100%. A sense of community is important to life. Going to church is one way of getting community. Read Bowling Alone. I think it's sad how the US has lots it sense of community.

People don't want to spend an hour every Sunday hearing that everything they believe is evil. Churches got political and it boosted attendance in some regions, but it also made Christianity abhorrent to people in other regions

I wonder to what extent, proportion wise, this is accurate. (I wrote the above comment you're quoting) The only way my church has gotten political is they've hung a LGBTQ pride flag in the Youth Group recreation area (the updated one, with the brown stripes, too).

It's shocking how detached from reality some people's preconceptions are.

I was never religious, but I actually used to envy those who are because they had this automatic sense of community. I remember a friend telling me she can go to a synagogue anywhere in the world and hear the same language, repeat the same rituals and be welcomed.

Then Prop 8 happened in California, where I was raised. Signs went up in yards in my old neighborhood -- people I never thought of as bigoted -- supporting the ban on same sex marriage. Most of the support for Prop 8 came from churches.

I'm a lesbian who had been in a 10 year relationship at the time. We got married in California 4 days before Prop 8 passed. I lost all respect for religion after that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Since when are DAR, yacht clubs, golf leagues staples of the American working and middle class? Even service clubs have traditionally been the purview of those with enough excess capital to fund them

The PP described a range of organizations where people formed bonds. I grew up in a blue-collar neighborhood, and my parents were involved in community service organizations (and church). The point is that our rejection of institutions leaves a vacuum and impacts people of all economic circumstances, who now find themselves lonely and disconnected.

I don't know if it's rejection of institutions. I know that there were plenty of organizations in previous generations that were basically kept afloat due to women's unpaid labor -- from the PTA, to churches, to clubs. As a military officer's wife, I've heard lots of conversations about all the things that officer's wives used to do. Heck, I grew up with a dad who was a doctor and the 'medical auxiliary' (doctors' wife club) had a volunteer group that drove people to cancer treatment when they didn't have any family to help out. I work at a university and part of the reason your tuition is so high is because lots of things that were previously done by Professor's wives (like hosting socials, helping foreign students, etc.) are now done by paid professionals in fields like Student Services, International Student Organization, etc. A lot of churches are less active because there are fewer stay at home wives overall, and fewer who want to spend all their time doing unpaid labor that is usually unacknowledged and unappreciated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

100%. A sense of community is important to life. Going to church is one way of getting community. Read Bowling Alone. I think it's sad how the US has lots it sense of community.

People don't want to spend an hour every Sunday hearing that everything they believe is evil. Churches got political and it boosted attendance in some regions, but it also made Christianity abhorrent to people in other regions

I wonder to what extent, proportion wise, this is accurate. (I wrote the above comment you're quoting) The only way my church has gotten political is they've hung a LGBTQ pride flag in the Youth Group recreation area (the updated one, with the brown stripes, too).

It's shocking how detached from reality some people's preconceptions are.

I used to be a methodist. We had a string of progressive pastors, and then got a conservative one. It only took them about a year to drive away most of the congregation. They're gone now, but I'm not interested in seeing if the new guy is better. That's the risk they run by constantly rotating pastors

Why not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Can you expand upon the idea that not attending church and pulling back from other organizations means that people are lonely and isolated?

Which part is unclear to you? Do you want a series of links to articles citing research about the rapidly increasing rates of depression, loneliness, and isolation? Do you want demographic links demonstrating the increasing percentages of single-person households? Do you want links about the decline of club and organization and institutional membership?

Do you really need me to Google these things for you?

Or are you skeptical of the idea that all of these trends are related, and that the prevalence of one is a contributing cause of another?

No -I was interested in your perception. e.g., Is it from internet links? Are you experiencing it yourself?

I've definitely read about it. It's been covered extensively for at least a decade in media ranging from NYT, certainly, to The Atlantic. That Bowling Alone guy -- what's his name, he's a long time Harvard person -- has written about it.

In my own life? Definitely, compared to the lives my parents and their friends led at this age, our cohorts are much less involved in community organizations and clubs, and it's all Travel Soccer and Dance Rehearsal seven days a week, in some form or another.

Thanks, sounds like you're saying it's more specifically kid-centered now than more broadly community-centered, as it was when you were growing up.

What I'm seeing is kid-centered mainly because I have three kids living at home. And what I witness personally, as it relates to this discussion, is going to be a far better picture of American life than what most are experiencing. I'm married and affluent with a thriving household and involved extended family. So if you want my personal experience, my biggest complaint is going to be limited to the fact that we're overly focused on kids' activities.

What's much sadder, in my opinion, is the devastating loneliness that is becoming so prevalent in our country and is under the radar of many of us. I'm sure it's offensive to point this out, but declining marriage rates do not promote well-being and happiness. There are fewer children, families are more dispersed, older couples, and older singles are far more likely to live alone and have very limited human contact. Religious participation is just one of many things that can alleviate this, and has been a major factor in doing so in past generations. But, as I've said, along with so many other things declining, it's just getting worse.

I think it's so narrow minded and short-sighted for people to look at this and get a little giddy about sticking it to those Fundies.

[Anonymous]

Hallelujah! Pun intended. Maybe the “nones” will grow up and take in leadership and public service roles so we can actually have a separation of church and state in what’s left of democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

100%. A sense of community is important to life. Going to church is one way of getting community. Read Bowling Alone. I think it's sad how the US has lots it sense of community.

People don't want to spend an hour every Sunday hearing that everything they believe is evil. Churches got political and it boosted attendance in some regions, but it also made Christianity abhorrent to people in other regions

I wonder to what extent, proportion wise, this is accurate. (I wrote the above comment you're quoting) The only way my church has gotten political is they've hung a LGBTQ pride flag in the Youth Group recreation area (the updated one, with the brown stripes, too).

It's shocking how detached from reality some people's preconceptions are.

I was never religious, but I actually used to envy those who are because they had this automatic sense of community. I remember a friend telling me she can go to a synagogue anywhere in the world and hear the same language, repeat the same rituals and be welcomed.

Then Prop 8 happened in California, where I was raised. Signs went up in yards in my old neighborhood -- people I never thought of as bigoted -- supporting the ban on same sex marriage. Most of the support for Prop 8 came from churches.

I'm a lesbian who had been in a 10 year relationship at the time. We got married in California 4 days before Prop 8 passed. I lost all respect for religion after that.

They probably didn't think they were bigoted either -- just good Christians. Could be that a lot of them have changed their minds about homosexuality by now. Many Christian churches these days welcome homosexuals. Not Catholic Churches though, despite the fact that many of their clergy are homosexual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Can you expand upon the idea that not attending church and pulling back from other organizations means that people are lonely and isolated?

Which part is unclear to you? Do you want a series of links to articles citing research about the rapidly increasing rates of depression, loneliness, and isolation? Do you want demographic links demonstrating the increasing percentages of single-person households? Do you want links about the decline of club and organization and institutional membership?

Do you really need me to Google these things for you?

Or are you skeptical of the idea that all of these trends are related, and that the prevalence of one is a contributing cause of another?

No -I was interested in your perception. e.g., Is it from internet links? Are you experiencing it yourself?

I've definitely read about it. It's been covered extensively for at least a decade in media ranging from NYT, certainly, to The Atlantic. That Bowling Alone guy -- what's his name, he's a long time Harvard person -- has written about it.

In my own life? Definitely, compared to the lives my parents and their friends led at this age, our cohorts are much less involved in community organizations and clubs, and it's all Travel Soccer and Dance Rehearsal seven days a week, in some form or another.

Thanks, sounds like you're saying it's more specifically kid-centered now than more broadly community-centered, as it was when you were growing up.

What I'm seeing is kid-centered mainly because I have three kids living at home. And what I witness personally, as it relates to this discussion, is going to be a far better picture of American life than what most are experiencing. I'm married and affluent with a thriving household and involved extended family. So if you want my personal experience, my biggest complaint is going to be limited to the fact that we're overly focused on kids' activities.

What's much sadder, in my opinion, is the devastating loneliness that is becoming so prevalent in our country and is under the radar of many of us. I'm sure it's offensive to point this out, but declining marriage rates do not promote well-being and happiness. There are fewer children, families are more dispersed, older couples, and older singles are far more likely to live alone and have very limited human contact. Religious participation is just one of many things that can alleviate this, and has been a major factor in doing so in past generations. But, as I've said, along with so many other things declining, it's just getting worse.

I think it's so narrow minded and short-sighted for people to look at this and get a little giddy about sticking it to those Fundies.

Narrow minded and short-sighted, perhaps, but there's some truth to it, as well. Plus, it's not just Fundies. The mainline protestant and Catholic Churches are losing members too.

Personally, I think it's for good reasons, overall - fewer people believing or pretending to believe in God, or accepting that regular church attendance is the best way to express your belief.

Maybe we're in an evolutionary time and soon there will be a way for people to be involved in their communities on a regular basis, without religious observance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Can you expand upon the idea that not attending church and pulling back from other organizations means that people are lonely and isolated?

Which part is unclear to you? Do you want a series of links to articles citing research about the rapidly increasing rates of depression, loneliness, and isolation? Do you want demographic links demonstrating the increasing percentages of single-person households? Do you want links about the decline of club and organization and institutional membership?

Do you really need me to Google these things for you?

Or are you skeptical of the idea that all of these trends are related, and that the prevalence of one is a contributing cause of another?

No -I was interested in your perception. e.g., Is it from internet links? Are you experiencing it yourself?

I've definitely read about it. It's been covered extensively for at least a decade in media ranging from NYT, certainly, to The Atlantic. That Bowling Alone guy -- what's his name, he's a long time Harvard person -- has written about it.

In my own life? Definitely, compared to the lives my parents and their friends led at this age, our cohorts are much less involved in community organizations and clubs, and it's all Travel Soccer and Dance Rehearsal seven days a week, in some form or another.

Thanks, sounds like you're saying it's more specifically kid-centered now than more broadly community-centered, as it was when you were growing up.

What I'm seeing is kid-centered mainly because I have three kids living at home. And what I witness personally, as it relates to this discussion, is going to be a far better picture of American life than what most are experiencing. I'm married and affluent with a thriving household and involved extended family. So if you want my personal experience, my biggest complaint is going to be limited to the fact that we're overly focused on kids' activities.

What's much sadder, in my opinion, is the devastating loneliness that is becoming so prevalent in our country and is under the radar of many of us. I'm sure it's offensive to point this out, but declining marriage rates do not promote well-being and happiness. There are fewer children, families are more dispersed, older couples, and older singles are far more likely to live alone and have very limited human contact. Religious participation is just one of many things that can alleviate this, and has been a major factor in doing so in past generations. But, as I've said, along with so many other things declining, it's just getting worse.

I think it's so narrow minded and short-sighted for people to look at this and get a little giddy about sticking it to those Fundies.

Narrow minded and short-sighted, perhaps, but there's some truth to it, as well. Plus, it's not just Fundies. The mainline protestant and Catholic Churches are losing members too.

Personally, I think it's for good reasons, overall - fewer people believing or pretending to believe in God, or accepting that regular church attendance is the best way to express your belief.

Maybe we're in an evolutionary time and soon there will be a way for people to be involved in their communities on a regular basis, without religious observance.

This is the thing, though, it's declining for everybody, so it's wrong to attribute it to the politics of churches you don't like. Even self-identified evangelicals have declining rates of church attendance (https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status/1380184604066332673). It's a bigger thing than just people disliking church teachings about homosexuality, because the churches that are LGBT affirming are declining, if anything, faster than the rest, and even the people who mostly oppose same-sex marriage aren't going to church.

I have no idea where this goes (I'm inclined to think that religiosity will rebound at some point in the next couple generations, because church attendance has gone down and then back up in the past), but the story being told by a lot of posters here simply isn't supported by the data as a broader explanation (even if it might be their story.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Since when are DAR, yacht clubs, golf leagues staples of the American working and middle class? Even service clubs have traditionally been the purview of those with enough excess capital to fund them

The PP described a range of organizations where people formed bonds. I grew up in a blue-collar neighborhood, and my parents were involved in community service organizations (and church). The point is that our rejection of institutions leaves a vacuum and impacts people of all economic circumstances, who now find themselves lonely and disconnected.

I don't know if it's rejection of institutions. I know that there were plenty of organizations in previous generations that were basically kept afloat due to women's unpaid labor -- from the PTA, to churches, to clubs. As a military officer's wife, I've heard lots of conversations about all the things that officer's wives used to do. Heck, I grew up with a dad who was a doctor and the 'medical auxiliary' (doctors' wife club) had a volunteer group that drove people to cancer treatment when they didn't have any family to help out. I work at a university and part of the reason your tuition is so high is because lots of things that were previously done by Professor's wives (like hosting socials, helping foreign students, etc.) are now done by paid professionals in fields like Student Services, International Student Organization, etc. A lot of churches are less active because there are fewer stay at home wives overall, and fewer who want to spend all their time doing unpaid labor that is usually unacknowledged and unappreciated.

This is a very interesting point that I had not considered. I think there's some weight to this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Since when are DAR, yacht clubs, golf leagues staples of the American working and middle class? Even service clubs have traditionally been the purview of those with enough excess capital to fund them

The PP described a range of organizations where people formed bonds. I grew up in a blue-collar neighborhood, and my parents were involved in community service organizations (and church). The point is that our rejection of institutions leaves a vacuum and impacts people of all economic circumstances, who now find themselves lonely and disconnected.

I don't know if it's rejection of institutions. I know that there were plenty of organizations in previous generations that were basically kept afloat due to women's unpaid labor -- from the PTA, to churches, to clubs. As a military officer's wife, I've heard lots of conversations about all the things that officer's wives used to do. Heck, I grew up with a dad who was a doctor and the 'medical auxiliary' (doctors' wife club) had a volunteer group that drove people to cancer treatment when they didn't have any family to help out. I work at a university and part of the reason your tuition is so high is because lots of things that were previously done by Professor's wives (like hosting socials, helping foreign students, etc.) are now done by paid professionals in fields like Student Services, International Student Organization, etc. A lot of churches are less active because there are fewer stay at home wives overall, and fewer who want to spend all their time doing unpaid labor that is usually unacknowledged and unappreciated.

Good thing we're so much happier now.

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Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Can you expand upon the idea that not attending church and pulling back from other organizations means that people are lonely and isolated?

Which part is unclear to you? Do you want a series of links to articles citing research about the rapidly increasing rates of depression, loneliness, and isolation? Do you want demographic links demonstrating the increasing percentages of single-person households? Do you want links about the decline of club and organization and institutional membership?

Do you really need me to Google these things for you?

Or are you skeptical of the idea that all of these trends are related, and that the prevalence of one is a contributing cause of another?

No -I was interested in your perception. e.g., Is it from internet links? Are you experiencing it yourself?

I've definitely read about it. It's been covered extensively for at least a decade in media ranging from NYT, certainly, to The Atlantic. That Bowling Alone guy -- what's his name, he's a long time Harvard person -- has written about it.

In my own life? Definitely, compared to the lives my parents and their friends led at this age, our cohorts are much less involved in community organizations and clubs, and it's all Travel Soccer and Dance Rehearsal seven days a week, in some form or another.

Thanks, sounds like you're saying it's more specifically kid-centered now than more broadly community-centered, as it was when you were growing up.

What I'm seeing is kid-centered mainly because I have three kids living at home. And what I witness personally, as it relates to this discussion, is going to be a far better picture of American life than what most are experiencing. I'm married and affluent with a thriving household and involved extended family. So if you want my personal experience, my biggest complaint is going to be limited to the fact that we're overly focused on kids' activities.

What's much sadder, in my opinion, is the devastating loneliness that is becoming so prevalent in our country and is under the radar of many of us. I'm sure it's offensive to point this out, but declining marriage rates do not promote well-being and happiness. There are fewer children, families are more dispersed, older couples, and older singles are far more likely to live alone and have very limited human contact. Religious participation is just one of many things that can alleviate this, and has been a major factor in doing so in past generations. But, as I've said, along with so many other things declining, it's just getting worse.

I think it's so narrow minded and short-sighted for people to look at this and get a little giddy about sticking it to those Fundies.

Narrow minded and short-sighted, perhaps, but there's some truth to it, as well. Plus, it's not just Fundies. The mainline protestant and Catholic Churches are losing members too.

Personally, I think it's for good reasons, overall - fewer people believing or pretending to believe in God, or accepting that regular church attendance is the best way to express your belief.

Maybe we're in an evolutionary time and soon there will be a way for people to be involved in their communities on a regular basis, without religious observance.

This is the thing, though, it's declining for everybody, so it's wrong to attribute it to the politics of churches you don't like. Even self-identified evangelicals have declining rates of church attendance (https://twitter.com/ryanburge/status/1380184604066332673). It's a bigger thing than just people disliking church teachings about homosexuality, because the churches that are LGBT affirming are declining, if anything, faster than the rest, and even the people who mostly oppose same-sex marriage aren't going to church.

I have no idea where this goes (I'm inclined to think that religiosity will rebound at some point in the next couple generations, because church attendance has gone down and then back up in the past), but the story being told by a lot of posters here simply isn't supported by the data as a broader explanation (even if it might be their story.)

Maybe people are getting over belief in God, plus church is seeming more and more like a silly thing to do if you don't believe. Will that behavior change? I hope not, though I do want to see people more involved in their communities. It may be that church is fading as the obvious way to do it.

I doubt that religiosity will rebound and hope that it doesn't. It's sort of weird, in my view, for grown adults be believe in the adult version of Santa Claus -- and to see people so offended by God being called a sky fairy. Yes, it's meant to be insulting, but it's also true. God supposedly does more than a fairy, but he's still invisible and supernatural like a fairy and sometimes he answers prayers and sometimes he doesn't. hmmm.

As science continues to evolve, it seems like it will be harder and harder for people to believe in God.

[Anonymous]

As an atheist, I prefer if the main driver is logic that drives it down for all religions, and not just ones with whom I disagree politically or who I feel have committed civic transgressions. This means no specific hatred for any one religion.

I like to think the main reason is that people are learning more and choosing to not believe in things - religious or otherwise - for which there is insufficient evidence.