Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Initial studies show that the achievement gap is reduced which is quite remarkable, so less As and less Fs and more Bs, Cs, and Ds. Some school districts in fact no longer use grades at all and instead grade with language describing the level of mastery attained.

And how many kids were in these studies? Was there an objective way of evaluating the achievement gap other than the grade they received using skills-based grading? I know that my child tells me that class is less interesting and no one does the work anymore, specifically when it comes to something the kids were supposed to be prepared to discuss, but no one bothered since it doesn't count. Kids regularly show up to honors and AP classes and fail the quizzes because they don't count. Part of the problem with skills-based grading is that it teaches kids that they don't have to do the work.

I'd like to see SOL scores and compare that to before and after skills-based grading.

Like most equity efforts, this is just a method to dedicate more of the teachers time and grading leniency to failing students and leave self sufficient students to fend for themselves while also removing rewards for their self sufficiency. Equity is always about replacing poor parenting and ignoring everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

The end of term assessments determine the grade in a purely objective fashion.

But that's not what's really happening. At Madison, content only counts as one "skill" and it gets replaced throughout the year which makes no sense to me. Just because a student gets an A on a test, it doesn’t mean the student understood the previous material, and it doesn’t mean the student will get an A in the future. You can say the focus is on skills, but there is also content. The content should be tested every single time for every single unit and the content grade should stay in the grade book. I don't understand how skills-based grading reflects what a student knows in science and math and "a purely objective fashion" would mean that none of the skills grades are dropped and replaced.

This isn't correct. There are multiple units that each have a "final" skill grade. Your grade on Unit 1 isn't replaced by your grade on Unit 7! You get a final grade on Unit 1 and it is calculated into the grade as the year goes along. It's not like you can just do the last test of the year, ace it, and get an A. Does Not Work Like That.

It's different for every class which is part of the problem. But for most classes, if you show an upward trend in a skill, the grade gets replaced.

There’s also the issue of students who are consistent on (practice) formatives and do markedly differently on the single summarize assessment for a skill. A kid doing well who has a bad day for the assessment gets a grade lower grade despite probably having actually learned the skill as demonstrated by As in practice, while a kid who gets a s in praybut gets lucky on the summaries gets a mastery grade they don’t really deserve.

Assessments are uneven. One section gets five short answer questions, another teacher requires sixteen four part answers not a single student was able to complete in the time allotted.

And then there’s the teacher who gave an assessment in 1st quarter and just decided last week that it wasn’t a good evaluation of the standard (and that she couldn’t effectively assess the standard at all) so she pulled the grade entirely. Kids who had done well saw their grades go down, kids who hadn’t done well benefited from the change.

It’s a poorly understood and horribly implemented nightmare for the students and as a parent, it’s stressful to watch my kid have to navigate it. My 2021 graduate had a far better academic experience at Madison even with a virtual senior year.

[Anonymous]

The grading at Madison is a disorganized mess this year and the principal knows that. Each teacher has their own version of skills based grading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The grading at Madison is a disorganized mess this year and the principal knows that. Each teacher has their own version of skills based grading.

I’m not sure the principal does know it. Seems like Madison is doubling down on this next year. Is there any hope at all of stopping this? I plan to vote straight Republican for the next school board elections in the hopes that eventually they replace Gatehouse officials who ok’d this. But that is years away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading at Madison is a disorganized mess this year and the principal knows that. Each teacher has their own version of skills based grading.

I’m not sure the principal does know it. Seems like Madison is doubling down on this next year. Is there any hope at all of stopping this? I plan to vote straight Republican for the next school board elections in the hopes that eventually they replace Gatehouse officials who ok’d this. But that is years away.

The first thing we can do is to respond to this principal survey right now. Reid is in the process of deciding what to do about this now. The best chance we have to stop this is to speak up against this now. Once Reid comes out with a decision, and I think those discussions are happening this Sping//Summer, it will be too late. What parents say right now matters.

[Anonymous]

A couple months ago Washington Post’s Jay Matthews cautioned against the rush to standards based grading:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/18/student-standards-based-grading/

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This thread is confusing because some are complaining of lower grades and others are complaining FCPS just wants to give easy grades to everyone to achieve equity.

Why - bring up the bottom and bring down the top is the second easiest way to achieve “equity,” right after just bringing down the top.

Yes - that does seem the be the overall effect of this, to compress the grade at both ends. I'm curious to see if everyone's grade gets bumped up at the end of the year because teachers and administrators keep saying things like don't worry, it will all be ok in the end, there are still grading opportunities (teachers), everyone will benefit (administrator). For kids with As, it currently looks like grade deflation.

I meant to write for kids that used to have As.

That’s the trend among districts across the country with the new Mastery Based Grading. Less A’s but less failures also. Students who don’t have the resources to do homework and complete other graded tasks at home are now able to have subject mastery evaluated st the end of the term, and retakes and supplemental instruction can be provided until students gain that mastery. Punctuality and deadlines in general are no longer punitive, and homework is optional.

According to the most recent data, the achievement gap is reduced via successful implementation of Mastery Based Grading. This is the first time districts are seeing the achievement gap narrow after decades of failed attempts. While controversial for now among parents, students and teachers, most districts will implement some form of skills based grading over the next few years. Likely a slow and gradual implementation to avoid the problems at Madison and other schools. Notably APS’ Wakefield HS paused the implementation in 2022 after teachers and parents alike were against it.

For good reading on the new grading system and what it entails: “Grading for Equity: What It Is, Why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms” by Joe Feldman.

It doesn’t even make sense to me how this lowers the achievement gap but I may not understand it fully. Like how does only evaluating at the end matter if kids still do poorly at that point and how does this make that less likely? Having said that, this sounds like a disaster and I hope it’s not coming to my kids’ FCPS school. If nothing else, this sounds super confusing and leaves the kids in the dark about where they stand.

[Anonymous]

I’m the PP and adding that I guess maybe I’ve already seen some of this at my kids schools for a while I guess, like being able to do test corrections after a math test to raise their grades. I don’t like it. My concern is that it disguises lack of mastery of material/ineffective teaching/tests that are too hard. In my DD’s math class, some of the tests have had a class average in the 60s or low 70s. This is an honors class at a school with pretty motivated kids so to keep this days the material wasn’t taught well (and the teacher seems strong so it may not be that) or the test was too hard. But with the test corrections, the kids get their grades up to Bs, Bplus, something respectable. I don’t think sound the test corrections shows real mastery though and I think this process allows for less mastery of standards.

[Anonymous]

I get the complaint that kids are often "lazy" (or is it that they are efficient in using their time on things that count?)...and the skills based grading allows kids to choose NOT to do practice assignments (which drives parents nuts when they see "not turned in" in SIS). I can see how SBG does not improve dedication-to-task and work habits....

But isn't there an upside --even for upper middle class kids who have time to do homework, but maybe aren't the best at executive functioning and getting things done? And certainly there is an upside for kids who don't understand concepts right away, but ultimately DO get help at study hall or make the connection on their own?

I mean, I have a kid, like many boys, who sometimes misses deadlines. If he can shiw rhat he understands the material on the test, he's not penalized for missing the homework. And he makes the choice to use his time on the homework or not...which drives me nuts ('cause I think you should do all the homework to prepare for tests), but I can't say he's been hurt by the process. He has all A-'s and one B+.

Maybe if I thought he needed to have all A's, I'd be riding his case more...but I don't think that's helpful. He's learning what he needs to learn, and showing what his teachers need him to show. To me that's success.

SBG might be good for more than just "the poors" and "equity". It might be good for kids who can learn concepts/skills, but don't always have perfect homework habits. I wonder if a portion of those who are strongly against it are parents of kids who ARE very conscientious about doing all the homework and SBG doesn't give them the grade boost for that snymore?

I do recognize that SBG does not incentivise: following directions, being timely, and showing sustained effort on tasks. ...which plays into the psychology of humans to do as little as possible. On the other hand, SBG seems to prioritize what the kid actually knows/shows about the material being taught. The learning of the material is the main thing, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get the complaint that kids are often "lazy" (or is it that they are efficient in using their time on things that count?)...and the skills based grading allows kids to choose NOT to do practice assignments (which drives parents nuts when they see "not turned in" in SIS). I can see how SBG does not improve dedication-to-task and work habits....

But isn't there an upside --even for upper middle class kids who have time to do homework, but maybe aren't the best at executive functioning and getting things done? And certainly there is an upside for kids who don't understand concepts right away, but ultimately DO get help at study hall or make the connection on their own?

I mean, I have a kid, like many boys, who sometimes misses deadlines. If he can shiw rhat he understands the material on the test, he's not penalized for missing the homework. And he makes the choice to use his time on the homework or not...which drives me nuts ('cause I think you should do all the homework to prepare for tests), but I can't say he's been hurt by the process. He has all A-'s and one B+.

Maybe if I thought he needed to have all A's, I'd be riding his case more...but I don't think that's helpful. He's learning what he needs to learn, and showing what his teachers need him to show. To me that's success.

SBG might be good for more than just "the poors" and "equity". It might be good for kids who can learn concepts/skills, but don't always have perfect homework habits. I wonder if a portion of those who are strongly against it are parents of kids who ARE very conscientious about doing all the homework and SBG doesn't give them the grade boost for that snymore?

I do recognize that SBG does not incentivise: following directions, being timely, and showing sustained effort on tasks. ...which plays into the psychology of humans to do as little as possible. On the other hand, SBG seems to prioritize what the kid actually knows/shows about the material being taught. The learning of the material is the main thing, right?

All good points, but soft skills are important for those that join the workforce out of college, or even college bound students. If you’re late to a job interview, you can kiss that job goodbye. Most jobs demand productivity. Colleges don’t allow for retakes, and deadlines are deadlines. Etc.

[Anonymous]

^Typo. Meant to say soft skills are important for students that join the workforce out of high school, and also for those that are college bound. Doesn’t really apply to those graduates going into the military.

[Anonymous]

Do you want a fast way to drive many excellent teachers out of the profession? Implement standards based grading. That will drive the best teachers out rapidly.

[Anonymous]

The skills based grading system develops shallow knowledge least-effort-possible habits. I think catering to people with poor habits is the opposite of what we need to do. Throwing all these soft skills out the window for a false sense of education is ultimately more harmful to students futures.

I think an IB approach to every school would lift everyone even if the grades and gaps suffered.

[Anonymous]

He has all A-'s and one B+.

Madison did away with + and -.

I wonder if a portion of those who are strongly against it are parents of kids who ARE very conscientious about doing all the homework and SBG doesn't give them the grade boost for that snymore?

First of all, there is very little homework assigned in a general class. What is assigned is optional and not graded (I'm not talking about AP or honors). What Madison is doing is not counting CLASSWORK unless it is an assessment. This is what bothers me. My DC tells me of classes where there used to be an interesting discussion but no longer because how can you discuss something when no one has read the assigned article. I can't imagine teaching a class where the classwork doesn't count - this is the part that hurts poor kids the most, because now we are basically giving up on them. I would never teach in a school with SBG. I know there are teachers at Madison that are thinking about leaving. I have heard that administration does not want to hear what the teachers think about this and frankly, in my own conversations, I came to the conclusion they don't want to hear what parents think either. They survey students on everything (ask your kid about all the surveys they take in Warhawk time) but not about how SBG affects their mental health.

SBG seems to prioritize what the kid actually knows/shows about the material being taught.

I think SBG is going to lead to kids learning less because that's what happens if you don't do the work. My husband and I have science/math backgrounds and you don't learn this material without doing the work. You don't just understand it even though you never practiced, and you can't just look up whatever you want to know. BTW the rest of the world isn't doing this crap. In China & India, do you think they are dumbing everything down so that the students getting Fs will now get a D? Do you think SBG is preparing your kid to compete in a world where people are working really hard?

I have a boy too. He has terrible work habits that started in middle school because of the late policy for assignments. I'm trying to help him change course - he is capable of so much more.This is an AAP kid that always had As before but realized he can do nothing and get a B. By making classwork not count, SBG is going to turn a kid that could have been a stellar student into a lazy student with terrible habits, and he will not be prepared to succeed in college. These colleges are going to have to dumb down what they do if SBG spreads to all schools - or just accept more international students.

[Anonymous]

I think an IB approach to every school would lift everyone even if the grades and gaps suffered.

Thank you for saying this. I'm going to look at getting my kid into South Lakes for IB instead of going to Madison. Do you happen to know if you have to start IB as a freshman?