Restorative Justice is struggling to show success in MCPS according to students, parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental premise of restorative justice is so flawed and naive. The prevalence of psychopaths is only about 1% of the general population but when you're talking about those involved in the justice system, studies have it in a range from 15-25%.

So you are preaching lessons of empathy and remorse and forgiveness and then applying it to a population where a substantial proportion of your participants are actually neurologically incapable of this. Callousness and lack of remorse or empathy is literally the defining characteristic! Even worse, it is well known in the field that psychopaths are basically impervious to therapy and use these kind of conversations to lie and manipulate the therapists and the bleeding hearts around them and to fake guilt and remorse while they are secretly marveling at the idiocy of those around them who are falling for it, or learning new manipulation techniques for the next time. It plays right into their hands.

And then the proponent publish these dumb surveys and celebrate the "success" with no understanding that they're just the next in a long line of people the psychopath has manipulated for their own ends. I know they want to believe that these people can be fixed and develop empathy, but this has never happened in studis. Their brains are broken by a combination of genetics and environment. What IS successful in reducing their criminality is a consistent system of rewards and punishments so that they come to their own conclusion that law-breaking behavior is less useful to them than law-abiding. Because that is the only stick they measure anything by. That MCPS has tried to badly apply this whole misguided mess across the board is just making it all worse.

Remember those running the Boards often have their kids in private and then are screaming equity in MCPS. They should be required to have their kids in MCPS if they want to make decisions given they have no first hand experience.

RJ might work for minor issues but you'd need the child's parents involved and them actually parenting and giving consequences at home for the poor behavior. Otherwise it victimizes the victim and gives the abuser a free pass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fundamental premise of restorative justice is so flawed and naive. The prevalence of psychopaths is only about 1% of the general population but when you're talking about those involved in the justice system, studies have it in a range from 15-25%.

So you are preaching lessons of empathy and remorse and forgiveness and then applying it to a population where a substantial proportion of your participants are actually neurologically incapable of this. Callousness and lack of remorse or empathy is literally the defining characteristic! Even worse, it is well known in the field that psychopaths are basically impervious to therapy and use these kind of conversations to lie and manipulate the therapists and the bleeding hearts around them and to fake guilt and remorse while they are secretly marveling at the idiocy of those around them who are falling for it, or learning new manipulation techniques for the next time. It plays right into their hands.

And then the proponent publish these dumb surveys and celebrate the "success" with no understanding that they're just the next in a long line of people the psychopath has manipulated for their own ends. I know they want to believe that these people can be fixed and develop empathy, but this has never happened in studis. Their brains are broken by a combination of genetics and environment. What IS successful in reducing their criminality is a consistent system of rewards and punishments so that they come to their own conclusion that law-breaking behavior is less useful to them than law-abiding. Because that is the only stick they measure anything by. That MCPS has tried to badly apply this whole misguided mess across the board is just making it all worse.

Remember those running the Boards often have their kids in private and then are screaming equity in MCPS. They should be required to have their kids in MCPS if they want to make decisions given they have no first hand experience.

RJ might work for minor issues but you'd need the child's parents involved and them actually parenting and giving consequences at home for the poor behavior. Otherwise it victimizes the victim and gives the abuser a free pass.

This exactly. Only a stupid voter would fall for anyone who keeps their own kids in private schools. Seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All teachers know this. It’s a disaster. Restorative justice is supposed to be a piece of the puzzle. MCPS has tried to make it the sole solution for all discipline issues which is not how it is supposed to be used. Actions are supposed to have consequences.

So who gets to be held accountable for this massive blunder within MCPS's leadership? Was RJ Monifa's big bet? I don't think so since it was being implemented before she was appointed, no?

No. Restorative Justice was implemented way before McKnight took charge.

Nobody will be held accountable because there is no oversight of MCPS.

They had started implementing it even before Jack Smith took charge.

https://go.boarddocs.com/mabe/mcpsmd/Board.nsf/files/A9KNVB570BF0/$file/Restorative%20Justice.pdf

Sure, this has “changed the culture” of MCPS. It’s worse than ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

THIS is what we need in MCPS. Apply the same rules across the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

Oh wow, that is just terrible. And so disheartening for my kids who attend an MCPS public school. The school environment sucks as it is. This will make it even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

Oh wow, that is just terrible. And so disheartening for my kids who attend an MCPS public school. The school environment sucks as it is. This will make it even worse.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All teachers know this. It’s a disaster. Restorative justice is supposed to be a piece of the puzzle. MCPS has tried to make it the sole solution for all discipline issues which is not how it is supposed to be used. Actions are supposed to have consequences.

I had read in another thread that some kids were suspended for four days for some other act so sounds like RJ isn't the only remedy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the Maori people use restorative justice to great effect. But we're not Maori. So.

I think the real problem is not that we aren't Maori, and not that restorative justice doesn't work; the real problem is that ACTUALLY implementing is a huge commitment of time, money and resources.

Perhaps if MCPS had increased the budget for counseling ten fold, and deeply trained staff, teachers, and the community, it would work. But simply paying lip service and using it as an excuse to do avoid accountability for either students or MCPS seems to be what happened. Massive social reworking via a few public relations missives wasn't quite going to do it.

MORE money is always the solution, huh? Lol.

Especially in MCPS. MCPS leadership is never held accountable so they can spend money freely and the BOE signs off on it. So much wasted money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, the Maori people use restorative justice to great effect. But we're not Maori. So.

I think the real problem is not that we aren't Maori, and not that restorative justice doesn't work; the real problem is that ACTUALLY implementing is a huge commitment of time, money and resources.

Perhaps if MCPS had increased the budget for counseling ten fold, and deeply trained staff, teachers, and the community, it would work. But simply paying lip service and using it as an excuse to do avoid accountability for either students or MCPS seems to be what happened. Massive social reworking via a few public relations missives wasn't quite going to do it.

MORE money is always the solution, huh? Lol.

Especially in MCPS. MCPS leadership is never held accountable so they can spend money freely and the BOE signs off on it. So much wasted money.

I know I even heard they bought bocce equipment so disabled kids cc would participate in PE. It is one the greatest scandals!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

THIS is what we need in MCPS. Apply the same rules across the board.

This is common sense. Sadly, common sense is not common anymore.

[Anonymous]

My concern is all the low level issues. Skipping classes. Bathroom incidents. Students disrupting teaching in class. Restorative justice doesn't really help hold students accountable in any way for these issues when there is no clear victim. So, the students doesn't have opportunity to learn anything. It really brings down the school learning culture when there are no consequences for any behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://moco360.media/2023/02/28/mcps-students-data-suggest-failing-grade-for-restorative-justice-practices/

Montgomery County Public Schools is in the middle of formally assessing the success of its social justice-inspired approach to conflict resolution in cases of school bullying, violence and hate bias using state-provided metrics.

Data indicates that MCPS efforts to adopt a restorative justice model may not have been effective, while students and parents question the success of its approach to conflict resolution.

The school district describes restorative justice as “an approach to building community, self-care, and conflict resolution.” The approach was first adopted in 2019 after the state passed regulations requiring schools to employ more trauma-informed practices. Within this model, principals can request a member of the central office restorative justice team to be deployed to schools as incidents arise

Students and parents wouldn't know if this is working since these matters are private. RJ is an acceptable way to approach many issues, but probably just one of several methods that should be available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shocker.


There's no substitute for actual justice.

Amen! Bring back corporal punishment. Put those kids in their place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All teachers know this. It’s a disaster. Restorative justice is supposed to be a piece of the puzzle. MCPS has tried to make it the sole solution for all discipline issues which is not how it is supposed to be used. Actions are supposed to have consequences.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

THIS is what we need in MCPS. Apply the same rules across the board.

This is common sense. Sadly, common sense is not common anymore.

MCPS isn't qualified to be in the business of dispensing. If and when laws are broken, it's a matter for MCPD.