Restorative Justice is struggling to show success in MCPS according to students, parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This place is anonymous so… if you’re a school administrator, do you actually feel like RJ and circles work? If so, why? If not, why? how will a forced circle solve real problems?

Yes, they're very effective. The issue is that student discipline is a private matter, so you never hear the whole story as an outsider.

Privacy is an allusion. And when the harm is done publicly, some aspect of the reconciliation or repair needs to be equally public as well.

Also, it's 2023 and we live in a digital/social media age. Very little is private. What ends up happening is kids become the main information source because they talk while the school pretends like it can't comment. It's an idiotic game to play.

And furthermore, even if the outcome of a specific incident is private, the consequences for the type of violation or offense should NOT be private and should transparent and broadcast loudly so everyone knows what to expect.

You are focusing on the outliers.

The fact that you keep insisting the rate and rise in student behavior incidents is a series of outliers a problem. If you work within MCPS and this is your attitude, you are toxic and you need to leave. We are looking for solutions, not a reality distortion machine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

Citation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

[Anonymous]

www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-03-06/did-an-obama-era-school-discipline-policy-contribute-to-the-parkland-shooting

This article gives the rates of suspension by race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

I watched the BOE on this topic and it was terrible.

For a school district that prides itself on data and analysis, it was embarrassing to see them miss all the marks on proper diagnosis and confuse correlation with causation.

To your point, the disparity exists due to factors both inside and outside of the school. They need to do the analysis to pinpoint the parts of the disparity that are directly related to the school environment and not pretend they can impact the metric in isolation when the reason for disciplinary and behavioral issues is greatly influenced by the home and neighborhood environment that the student lives in, which MCPS has NO control over.

[Anonymous]

Restorative justice is perhaps overly optimistic about what it expects. It imagines a world where victims can be magnanimous about some of the most heinous transgressions, guilty offenders can be truly apologetic, and the broader community is positioned and able to help both parties.

https://www.vox.com/22979070/restorative-justice-forgiveness-limits-promise

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

I watched the BOE on this topic and it was terrible.

For a school district that prides itself on data and analysis, it was embarrassing to see them miss all the marks on proper diagnosis and confuse correlation with causation.

To your point, the disparity exists due to factors both inside and outside of the school. They need to do the analysis to pinpoint the parts of the disparity that are directly related to the school environment and not pretend they can impact the metric in isolation when the reason for disciplinary and behavioral issues is greatly influenced by the home and neighborhood environment that the student lives in, which MCPS has NO control over.

Seems misguided. They need to focus on what they can address because failing to do this has an even greater impact on others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

MCPS needs to get out of the justice business focus on how to best dispense education. They should leave justice to the courts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-03-06/did-an-obama-era-school-discipline-policy-contribute-to-the-parkland-shooting

This article gives the rates of suspension by race.

I'd like to see the MCPS-specific rates, to be honest. National rates, or Florida rates, aren't going to tell us much about our own county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

I watched the BOE on this topic and it was terrible.

For a school district that prides itself on data and analysis, it was embarrassing to see them miss all the marks on proper diagnosis and confuse correlation with causation.

To your point, the disparity exists due to factors both inside and outside of the school. They need to do the analysis to pinpoint the parts of the disparity that are directly related to the school environment and not pretend they can impact the metric in isolation when the reason for disciplinary and behavioral issues is greatly influenced by the home and neighborhood environment that the student lives in, which MCPS has NO control over.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All teachers know this. It’s a disaster. Restorative justice is supposed to be a piece of the puzzle. MCPS has tried to make it the sole solution for all discipline issues which is not how it is supposed to be used. Actions are supposed to have consequences.

+1 seriously

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn't even work for the Maori. They have higher levels of criminality than any other New Zealanders.

That has to do with … gasp … inequity.

If it doesn't fix inequity in New Zealand, why would it help here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

As a POC, I can 100% agree that that disparity is unfair and MCPS needs to rectify that. I fail, however, to see how Restorative Justice closes that disparity other than taking away consequences from everybody in the name of restoration and parity.

It seems like the wrong solution for the problem was applied here. What should have been done is a tightening of discipline measures to ensure consistent and fair application of them, not an elimination of discipline, accountability and consequences in the name of equity, kindness and restoration.

MCPS needs to get out of the justice business focus on how to best dispense education. They should leave justice to the courts.

+1000

[Anonymous]

The fundamental premise of restorative justice is so flawed and naive. The prevalence of psychopaths is only about 1% of the general population but when you're talking about those involved in the justice system, studies have it in a range from 15-25%.

So you are preaching lessons of empathy and remorse and forgiveness and then applying it to a population where a substantial proportion of your participants are actually neurologically incapable of this. Callousness and lack of remorse or empathy is literally the defining characteristic! Even worse, it is well known in the field that psychopaths are basically impervious to therapy and use these kind of conversations to lie and manipulate the therapists and the bleeding hearts around them and to fake guilt and remorse while they are secretly marveling at the idiocy of those around them who are falling for it, or learning new manipulation techniques for the next time. It plays right into their hands.

And then the proponent publish these dumb surveys and celebrate the "success" with no understanding that they're just the next in a long line of people the psychopath has manipulated for their own ends. I know they want to believe that these people can be fixed and develop empathy, but this has never happened in studis. Their brains are broken by a combination of genetics and environment. What IS successful in reducing their criminality is a consistent system of rewards and punishments so that they come to their own conclusion that law-breaking behavior is less useful to them than law-abiding. Because that is the only stick they measure anything by. That MCPS has tried to badly apply this whole misguided mess across the board is just making it all worse.