Restorative Justice is struggling to show success in MCPS according to students, parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This place is anonymous so… if you’re a school administrator, do you actually feel like RJ and circles work? If so, why? If not, why? how will a forced circle solve real problems?

Yes, they're very effective. The issue is that student discipline is a private matter, so you never hear the whole story as an outsider.

Privacy is an allusion. And when the harm is done publicly, some aspect of the reconciliation or repair needs to be equally public as well.

Also, it's 2023 and we live in a digital/social media age. Very little is private. What ends up happening is kids become the main information source because they talk while the school pretends like it can't comment. It's an idiotic game to play.

And furthermore, even if the outcome of a specific incident is private, the consequences for the type of violation or offense should NOT be private and should transparent and broadcast loudly so everyone knows what to expect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More on how restorative justice is supposed to work:

https://www.yesmagazine.org/issue/beyond-prisons/2011/07/08/righting-wrongs-the-maori-way

That's nice, but NZ is tiny population wise compared to the US and the Maori are a slice of that already small population.

So made MCPS think they could copy and paste that model into one of the nation's largest school districts?

This never seemed scalable to begin with.

This. Without sufficient expertise, budget, measurement, leadership, communication and accountability, big ideas don't come to fruition.

It has not worked anywhere in the US. It revictimizes victims and allows bullies to continue bullying.

+1 I'll say again. No teenager wants to bare their souls and feelings in front of their bullies. These so called experts are idiots to not know that. Just read the article about how the Jewish girl from Whitman felt when she attended a RJ session with her perps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This place is anonymous so… if you’re a school administrator, do you actually feel like RJ and circles work? If so, why? If not, why? how will a forced circle solve real problems?

Yes, they're very effective. The issue is that student discipline is a private matter, so you never hear the whole story as an outsider.

Very true. The discipline of a minor is a private matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, one thing I find curious is that the presentation linked in the article appears to be entirely an MCPS product. However, back in 2019 (ish), MCPS had commissioned a RAND study on restorative justice practices. My child's school was in the study, but it just sort of....evaporated at some point.

If I were the sort of person with time/energy to look into this sort of thing, I'd be asking some pointed questions about what happened to THAT study and whether the results were ever released.

This is common practice in MCPS. MCPS hires an entity to do a ‘study’. Taxpayers pay tons of money to fund the study. And it just sort of…evaporates.

Plenty of people are making money with this model. But, our kids are certainly losing out.

This. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, one thing I find curious is that the presentation linked in the article appears to be entirely an MCPS product. However, back in 2019 (ish), MCPS had commissioned a RAND study on restorative justice practices. My child's school was in the study, but it just sort of....evaporated at some point.

If I were the sort of person with time/energy to look into this sort of thing, I'd be asking some pointed questions about what happened to THAT study and whether the results were ever released.

This is common practice in MCPS. MCPS hires an entity to do a ‘study’. Taxpayers pay tons of money to fund the study. And it just sort of…evaporates.

Plenty of people are making money with this model. But, our kids are certainly losing out.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

Brenda Wolff sounds like a racist. What she’s promoting is evil and will only degrade students even more. Shame on her and the others who agree with her tactics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More on how restorative justice is supposed to work:

https://www.yesmagazine.org/issue/beyond-prisons/2011/07/08/righting-wrongs-the-maori-way

That's nice, but NZ is tiny population wise compared to the US and the Maori are a slice of that already small population.

So made MCPS think they could copy and paste that model into one of the nation's largest school districts?

This never seemed scalable to begin with.

This. Without sufficient expertise, budget, measurement, leadership, communication and accountability, big ideas don't come to fruition.

It has not worked anywhere in the US. It revictimizes victims and allows bullies to continue bullying.

PP you quoted. Your response prompted me to look into the studies. This DOJ summary of a 2017 meta-analysis doesn't inspire confidence.

Effectiveness of Restorative Justice Programs https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/grants/250995.pdf

"Systematic analysis of studies of restorative justice programs and practices showed a moderate reduction in future delinquent behavior relative to more traditional juvenile court processing. However, those studies with stronger research designs (i.e., random assignment studies) showed smaller results, raising concerns about the robustness of these overall findings. Victim participants in these programs, however, do appear to experience a number of benefits and are more satisfied with these programs than traditional approaches to juvenile justice.

When researchers examined the different program types, they found promising results in terms of delinquency outcomes for the offenders for victim-offender conferencing, family group conferencing, arbitration/ mediation programs, and circle sentencing programs. However, in the more rigorous studies, the strength of these findings diminished, and findings across studies were highly variable. None of the program elements analyzed had a more additive effect than other program elements with the exception of including a preconference or a premediation meeting."

The promise — and problem — of restorative justice (Vox) https://www.vox.com/22979070/restorative-justice-forgiveness-limits-promise

"According to University of New South Wales Sydney criminologist Julie Stubbs, there is disagreement over whether restorative justice programs actually prioritize victims. Participants cite high levels of satisfaction, but it’s unclear how much of this can be attributed specifically to the programs as opposed to selection effects (are the types of people ending up in restorative justice programs somehow different from people who aren’t?), the effects of time, or support from their communities. She also notes that satisfaction has been conceptualized and measured inconsistently, making it hard to be definitive about victims’ experiences."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This place is anonymous so… if you’re a school administrator, do you actually feel like RJ and circles work? If so, why? If not, why? how will a forced circle solve real problems?

Yes, they're very effective. The issue is that student discipline is a private matter, so you never hear the whole story as an outsider.

This plus the 1% of discipline issues that should not use RJ give the program a bad name.

MCPS needs a way to expel students. Principals know when that is needed, it’s rare, but their hands are tied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This place is anonymous so… if you’re a school administrator, do you actually feel like RJ and circles work? If so, why? If not, why? how will a forced circle solve real problems?

Yes, they're very effective. The issue is that student discipline is a private matter, so you never hear the whole story as an outsider.

Privacy is an allusion. And when the harm is done publicly, some aspect of the reconciliation or repair needs to be equally public as well.

Also, it's 2023 and we live in a digital/social media age. Very little is private. What ends up happening is kids become the main information source because they talk while the school pretends like it can't comment. It's an idiotic game to play.

And furthermore, even if the outcome of a specific incident is private, the consequences for the type of violation or offense should NOT be private and should transparent and broadcast loudly so everyone knows what to expect.

You are focusing on the outliers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

If laws are being broken, then this is a matter for the courts to decide. MCPS shouldn't be in the business of handing out justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

Because of equity. Too many minority students were in detention or suspended.

Clarification: too many minority students were in detention or suspended for things white students did but were not given detention or suspension.

In my experience as a teacher, a kid can be causing low/mid level trouble all over the school. They then cross a line that requires consideration for suspension. I feel the behavior that leads up to the culminating event of the suspension is often lost in the data. So, I have a bit of mistrust when things are boiled down to pure referral and suspension data without and context.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More on how restorative justice is supposed to work:

https://www.yesmagazine.org/issue/beyond-prisons/2011/07/08/righting-wrongs-the-maori-way

That's nice, but NZ is tiny population wise compared to the US and the Maori are a slice of that already small population.

So made MCPS think they could copy and paste that model into one of the nation's largest school districts?

This never seemed scalable to begin with.

This. Without sufficient expertise, budget, measurement, leadership, communication and accountability, big ideas don't come to fruition.

It has not worked anywhere in the US. It revictimizes victims and allows bullies to continue bullying.

PP you quoted. Your response prompted me to look into the studies. This DOJ summary of a 2017 meta-analysis doesn't inspire confidence.

Effectiveness of Restorative Justice Programs https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/grants/250995.pdf

"Systematic analysis of studies of restorative justice programs and practices showed a moderate reduction in future delinquent behavior relative to more traditional juvenile court processing. However, those studies with stronger research designs (i.e., random assignment studies) showed smaller results, raising concerns about the robustness of these overall findings. Victim participants in these programs, however, do appear to experience a number of benefits and are more satisfied with these programs than traditional approaches to juvenile justice.

When researchers examined the different program types, they found promising results in terms of delinquency outcomes for the offenders for victim-offender conferencing, family group conferencing, arbitration/ mediation programs, and circle sentencing programs. However, in the more rigorous studies, the strength of these findings diminished, and findings across studies were highly variable. None of the program elements analyzed had a more additive effect than other program elements with the exception of including a preconference or a premediation meeting."

The promise — and problem — of restorative justice (Vox) https://www.vox.com/22979070/restorative-justice-forgiveness-limits-promise

"According to University of New South Wales Sydney criminologist Julie Stubbs, there is disagreement over whether restorative justice programs actually prioritize victims. Participants cite high levels of satisfaction, but it’s unclear how much of this can be attributed specifically to the programs as opposed to selection effects (are the types of people ending up in restorative justice programs somehow different from people who aren’t?), the effects of time, or support from their communities. She also notes that satisfaction has been conceptualized and measured inconsistently, making it hard to be definitive about victims’ experiences."

Wow! Thank you for these resources! That Vox article is really insightful and captures the problem with this model and system in tangible ways.