DD refused to edit her essay..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.

That is because you taught writing. Profs don't proofread papers.

They did for me and I almost majored in English, took many lit and "writing" courses. Apparently my Midwest, Big State U had better profs than what a lot of you had.

The class I used to teach involved a specific type of writing, synthesizing a lot of written material into a final product. I'm not sure why you feel the need to diminish that to prove some point.

At my university we would call this level of guidance "spoon feeding." It does not encourage growth or independence on the part of budding scholars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

Well, that violated UVA's Honor code and one of them should have reported it. UVA students take cheating very seriously. They sign that pledge at matriculation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

Well, that violated UVA's Honor code and one of them should have reported it. UVA students take cheating very seriously. They sign that pledge at matriculation

Im sorry? What is a violation of the honor code? The fact that her roommate wrote her essay hours before it was due? I think you are misunderstanding me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

Well, that violated UVA's Honor code and one of them should have reported it. UVA students take cheating very seriously. They sign that pledge at matriculation

LOL ! I think that you misread the post to which you refer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

Well, that violated UVA's Honor code and one of them should have reported it. UVA students take cheating very seriously. They sign that pledge at matriculation

Im sorry? What is a violation of the honor code? The fact that her roommate wrote her essay hours before it was due? I think you are misunderstanding me.

That poster thinks that your daughter's roommate wrote your daughter's app essays. Really a silly misreading. Your daughter & her roommate probably didn't know each other before arriving on campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

and my DD's freshman year roommate write her UVA essays hours before the deadline. Yes, it can happen, but I imagine someone must have eyeballed them.

My DH is a professional writer and I write alot in my job. Neither of us had anything to do with my kids essays. I spent a few hundred dollars to have an essay consultant help them but again all they did was brainstorm ideas, and make suggestions. The final essay was in my kids hands, came entirely from their brain and they wrote them. The essay consulted nixed an idea of my DDs because it was too cliche, and asked her to dig deeper, which she did. In the end, she had a highly moving essay which was noted as "thoughtful" in her application notes at her school. My philosophy was that they'd done all the hard work for 11 years to get the grades and the test scores, so I wanted to offer them a resource to ensure they were producing strong essays.

Well, that violated UVA's Honor code and one of them should have reported it. UVA students take cheating very seriously. They sign that pledge at matriculation

Im sorry? What is a violation of the honor code? The fact that her roommate wrote her essay hours before it was due? I think you are misunderstanding me.

That poster thinks that your daughter's roommate wrote your daughter's app essays. Really a silly misreading. Your daughter & her roommate probably didn't know each other before arriving on campus.

haha no and if the PP was actually reading the post they'd see what i was responding to a comment from another PP. No of course my DD did not know her now roommate and of course she's never written an essay for my DD hahahaha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

Writing centers, yes. Asking your lit prof to proofread your essay? No, wtf.

OP, are you going to control every aspect of her application? Decide now what control you need and set boundaries with her about what you’re going to insist on if you’re going to pay her app fees. I let my parents/sister proofread my essays… but then ignored some of their feedback. I’m sure my parents felt as you did; glad they didn’t make a huge fuss about it. I got in almost everywhere I applied, imperfect essays notwithstanding.

My DC definitely got feedback about essays before submission from professors. It was very beneficial and DC made significant progress with writing quality because of it. Wtf is wrong with getting instruction from professional educators like professors?

Do you not know what proofreading means? Constructive feedback, yes. A line edit or proofreading? No way.

In this thread, the OP is clearly speaking about working with a draft of the essay. No one is asking their professor to check for typos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.

That is because you taught writing. Profs don't proofread papers.

They did for me and I almost majored in English, took many lit and "writing" courses. Apparently my Midwest, Big State U had better profs than what a lot of you had.

The class I used to teach involved a specific type of writing, synthesizing a lot of written material into a final product. I'm not sure why you feel the need to diminish that to prove some point.

At my university we would call this level of guidance "spoon feeding." It does not encourage growth or independence on the part of budding scholars.

Agree 100%.

[Anonymous]

OP...you sound like a jerk. If your child is actually applying to "selective schools" they are smart and hard working. They have good grades. They have good test scores. They already have an essay. And what is your response? They are "stubborn", "lazy", and it would be a "waste of an application fee" to submit her application because she isn't doing what you want her to. Really, OP? You are prepared to drop thousands and thousands of dollars on a college education but you think paying under $100 to apply is a "waste"? Nice way to acknowledge your child's accomplishments.

You are acting like a jerk, and, understandably, your kid is refusing to do what you are suggesting. You've turned this into an ugly power struggle. You. The adult.

"Larla. I'm sorry how I've been acting about your essay. Your application is so strong, and your essay is good. Of course I will pay for your applications. I just got a little crazy because I know other kids are getting lots of private help with their essays. You don't need that kind of help, but it's unfair that other kids are getting it and you are not. I was just trying to think of a way to make it more fair for you, but I understand I sounded like a jerk about it. Whatever you decide, it's up to you. I hope you will think about letting someone read your essay and give feedback, but whatever you decide is ok with me. I won't bring it up again."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP...you sound like a jerk. If your child is actually applying to "selective schools" they are smart and hard working. They have good grades. They have good test scores. They already have an essay. And what is your response? They are "stubborn", "lazy", and it would be a "waste of an application fee" to submit her application because she isn't doing what you want her to. Really, OP? You are prepared to drop thousands and thousands of dollars on a college education but you think paying under $100 to apply is a "waste"? Nice way to acknowledge your child's accomplishments.

You are acting like a jerk, and, understandably, your kid is refusing to do what you are suggesting. You've turned this into an ugly power struggle. You. The adult.

"Larla. I'm sorry how I've been acting about your essay. Your application is so strong, and your essay is good. Of course I will pay for your applications. I just got a little crazy because I know other kids are getting lots of private help with their essays. You don't need that kind of help, but it's unfair that other kids are getting it and you are not. I was just trying to think of a way to make it more fair for you, but I understand I sounded like a jerk about it. Whatever you decide, it's up to you. I hope you will think about letting someone read your essay and give feedback, but whatever you decide is ok with me. I won't bring it up again."

I agree that op should back off but if you think good grades and scores means a “good essay” that’s just wrong. I think op should be nice but honest-if the essay is bad it’s kinder to clue daughter in (and then shut up. ) “I like the idea but I do think it could use some polishing, honey” or “I think this is nicely written but I think the story of your first kiss might not be quite right for your essay” is much nicer than a bland “your essay is good!” If it isn’t. Having said that, I’d give constructive feedback one time snd if she doesn’t want to do anything about it entirely her call.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if the essay is awful, i wouldn't want to spend the money to apply.

if kid doesn't want you to edit, can kid get a teacher to edit it?

let her pay the app fee that is going to be wasted.

No She doesn’t want a teacher and turned down a close relative also, I feel she is just stubborn and lazy.

When I did my essays, a hundred years ago, every suggestion I got would have made the essay worse. I submitted the essay I wanted - flaws at all - and got into good colleges, then a good law school. Lo these many years later I work as a writer.

Anyway, case study of one here.

[Anonymous]

Natural consequences OP. Be sure she applies to a sure safety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

Writing centers might (I don’t know — never worked in or with one), but PP is right. Profs don’ t proofread essays. Some of us will read or skim drafts, but more for substance and/or whether the student is on the right track (doing what the assignment is asking them to do).

Maybe things have changed since I was in school, but isn’t feedback reflected in the grade the student receives? If all the feedback comes before submission, they’re going to ace every assignment.

Oh I (PP you’re responding to) wish that were true! But no. Not every student is good at crafting an interesting thesis or marshaling evidence to back up an opinion or laying out an argument in an organized and compelling way. Professors (in fields other than writing) who agree to look at drafts generally identify problems or omissions. They don’t fix mistakes — that’s what proofreaders do. Which is why a number of us are resisting this label.

Re grades as feedback (and what I assume is, for you, an underlying equity issue). If draft-reading is made available to the whole class, then there’s no equity issue. As feedback, grades have limited utility (comments tell you much more — Which is one reason why some profs use a workshop approach). In general, profs are more interested to educating/training students than in ranking and sorting them. So giving students insights and opportunities to improve their work makes sense. And if students who act on these opportunities produce better papers than they would have otherwise, so much the better. The students who don’t need or want them aren’t slighted. They got this training earlier or elsewhere and/or they don’t see additional effort spent improving their scholarly writing as the most valuable use of their time (which, in many cases, it probably isn’t)!

[Anonymous]

This made me remember my mom reading over my essay-literally handed it right back to me and her only comment was “I’d try to limit yourself to only using the word paradigm once per paragraph.” Tough but fair!