If DC public charters are created to help the underprivileged is it bad to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean you can play this game forever in DC.

We are at a Title 1 DCPS (middle class white family) and we often have to have a discussion about whether we will participate in a program because we know it is designed for the many at risk kids at our school and we don't want to take opportunities away from other kids. On the other hand, it's our school and we want to be part of the community. And we don't want our kid to feel separate and apart.

Example: the school has heavily subsidized after care. It's ridiculously inexpensive. Is it wrong for us to use it even though we can afford to pay more? In the end we do use it because what is the alternative? For our kid to to go to some more expensive aftercare program somewhere else so that we don't feel guilty using a subsidized service? How would that look to the kids? It makes no sense. So we get a benefit we didn't earn and don't technically need, but it's really the most sensible outcome.

And then during the lottery each year we always feel a bit confused. Does it make more sense to stay and invest in our IB school (which we like!), or to acknowledge that this school is designed to serve the needs of a community we don't really belong to and lottery into a charter or OOB DCPS where the family community is more similar to us (whiter, more middle or upper middle class). I honestly don't know the answer. So far we've stayed out of loyalty to the school and because our kid is happy. Maybe we'll last until middle. It's really hard to know what the right thing to do it, especially when of course it's a crapshoot whether we even get into another school anyway.

Public school in DC is not for the faint of heart. Unless you live in a small number of school boundaries, you will at some point have to struggle with the question of whether to make a choice that serves your community or that serves your child, and then also to question what it even means to do right by your kid. There is no "set it and forget it" mode for most DC public school parents. You will have to wrestle with these questions.

Really appreciate this persepective- and I think you have boiled it down to the issue most parents have. The inability to "set it and forget it" means there is a constant bit of pressure weighing on you. Inevitability something will force you to grapple with questions - sometimes on a more frequent basis than others. A this stress adds up. And the lack of a "right" answer is disheartening. And everyone is making these same choices, with the same stress, but different factors- people you like, respect, etc- and you all come to different conclusions- but again recognize that there is no right answer. Its exhausting. And that I think is more why people leave DC. They are tired of having to think about it and question it and constantly confirm where they stand when so many places give you one and only one option and you never have to think about it again.

True, but it also means we have a ton of choices. In MCPS, where there are no choices, I have friends of color who's kids is the only black girls in her classes. A crappy math curriculum was horrific, but there was no way to avoid it. And if you live in the western part of the district, there aren't test in options anymore for MS.

In DC we may have chaos, but it also means we get to pick from a variety of options. In other places, not so much.

There's a lot wrong in this analysis. First of all, you have work HARD to choose a school that segregated even in MCPS. Yes, if you actively seek out a $3m home in Chevy Chase "for the schools," then you are actively choosing to put your Black child in a potentially hostile environment. But for the cost of choosing to live in-bounds for Burning Tree or Carderock Springs, you could also choose NOT to live there.

There are also still test-in magnets. There's also now universal testing and a lottery for kids over a certain threshold, which you can argue is not a perfect system but is equally accessible to all.

Basically, neither system is perfect but demonizing another school district with false narratives shouldn't be necessary in order to make your case about DCPS.

No you don't. Westland MS currently has only 63 black students in the entire school of 764 students.... Let's pretend the split is 50/50 male/female... so that's 31.5 black girls across three grades. That's about 10 black girls in each grade of 255 students. Very easy to be the only black girl in a school whose boundaries include all of downtown Bethesda. Not just $3m homes.

Also, if the idea is that you can are "actively choosing to put your Black child in a hostile environment" but its impossible for the same control expectations to be thrust up DC residents? You can move to Deal or Hardy catchment area and get your ideal racial balance as well.

And the test in magnets no longer apply to middle school for the southwestern half of the county. So no different than DC if you live there.

The narrative isn't false. It's just that you need to stop assuming the grass is always greener.

Yeah -- the school considerations are a complete mess for UMC black families. There really aren't any public school environments without racial landmines, because you're either an "only" in terms of race or in terms of race+SES depending on the school. There just aren't many public school options for UMC black children to find a critical mass of same-raced academic peers, which white (and probably Asian kids) can take for granted. Schools that don't have a history with a critical mass of high-performing black kids are almost useless for UMC black folks, as are, of course, schools dominated by low-performing black students. Pick your poison.

This is probably what leads blacks of means to send their kids to private schools, which are far from perfect, but at least can curate the student body such at their kids will have a critical mass of same-race academic peers performing---and just as importantly, the school doesn't see high-performing black kids as some novelty that you're sorta always testing out or waiting to fail. Not a panacea, but much better than the public options.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

That's right. Our charter is "whiter" than DCPS overall, but only about 30% white, while 50% black, with the rest a mix of Latino, multi-racial, and a few Asians. Seems pretty diverse to me, both in terms of race and SES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

That's right. Our charter is "whiter" than DCPS overall, but only about 30% white, while 50% black, with the rest a mix of Latino, multi-racial, and a few Asians. Seems pretty diverse to me, both in terms of race and SES.

Only diverse charters are DCI, LATIN and Basis

There are few options for MC and UMC whites too
Unless you are in North White DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

That has not been my experience. Setting aside that it ignores all of Latin and Basis that don't come from Ward 3, it is kind of offensive to black families to suggest that they (and by "they" I mean that's demographically what the rest of DCPS and HRCS are) are not seeking alternatives because their kids aren't being challenged. In point of fact, high performing black kids are MORE likely to peel off in my experience precisely because these same "good" ES and HRCS test scores tell us that the scores for black kids are markedly lower, and parents are concerned that merely "on grade level" will be good enough for their black student.

We were very happy at our HRCS but ultimately made a move in 5th because our kid was light years ahead of their grade but the school didn't test anything beyond a "4" (ahead by less than one grade level) and taught to the mean. That might have been ok, but not as the mean slid down year after year because high performing kids peeled off year after year. The ED at our school talks a good "equity" game but ignores the part of actually providing top flight education as a means to leveling the playing field. I refer to it in quiet as "Equity without Education".

In conversations with families at other DCPS ES and HRCS we found the same concerns and conversations were occurring. When we departed in 5th the school was demographically no different in 4th than it had been in 3rd or 2nd. In fact the only kids we lost to that point (other than the one who went overseas with State) were black kids who went private or in search of greener pastures. Unfortunately those kids were at the top of the class with our kid so we lost the rest of their cohort.

We are white and we left for more academic rigor and higher degree of accountability for disruptive behavior. So what's the narrative? Is this "white flight"? Does that term mean a white person leaving because there does not exist academic rigor, regardless of the demographic make-up of the school? Or does it mean a white person leaving to get away from black people? By arguing they are the same thing you are in fact making an argument that black=low performing or lowered expectations. That seems a more racist and insidious vision than allowing for the fact that all parents striving for excellent academic outcomes may and can leave for better options. It is lazy and entirely too easy to blame race and white flight. Doing so gives schools a pass for failing to provide top flight education for all enrolled students. We left. We don't suffer liberal guilt over it. If it makes DCUM or families that remain feel better to say it was racism that's fine by me. My kid is in an immeasurably improved environment at an incredibly rigorous school with a HS path. And the HRCS just lost one of the few remaining kids more than a grade level ahead. The school and community can look inward or outward at this point - no skin off my back. But continuing to just blame white flight is exacerbating the problem, lowering Tier and test scores and causing the demand for the school to plummet as against the last 6 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

That's right. Our charter is "whiter" than DCPS overall, but only about 30% white, while 50% black, with the rest a mix of Latino, multi-racial, and a few Asians. Seems pretty diverse to me, both in terms of race and SES.

Only diverse charters are DCI, LATIN and Basis

There are few options for MC and UMC whites too
Unless you are in North White DC

Funny story, Deal and Basis have almost the same black/white stats. And Latin has same % whites but @10% more black students overall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

That's right. Our charter is "whiter" than DCPS overall, but only about 30% white, while 50% black, with the rest a mix of Latino, multi-racial, and a few Asians. Seems pretty diverse to me, both in terms of race and SES.

Only diverse charters are DCI, LATIN and Basis

There are few options for MC and UMC whites too
Unless you are in North White DC

Funny story, Deal and Basis have almost the same black/white stats. And Latin has same % whites but @10% more black students overall.

Yeah that’s the point

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

This, thank you. This is what I was trying to explain upthread but someone kept yelling at me that I wasn’t accounting for Deal and Hardy, which are outliers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

That has not been my experience. Setting aside that it ignores all of Latin and Basis that don't come from Ward 3, it is kind of offensive to black families to suggest that they (and by "they" I mean that's demographically what the rest of DCPS and HRCS are) are not seeking alternatives because their kids aren't being challenged. In point of fact, high performing black kids are MORE likely to peel off in my experience precisely because these same "good" ES and HRCS test scores tell us that the scores for black kids are markedly lower, and parents are concerned that merely "on grade level" will be good enough for their black student.

We were very happy at our HRCS but ultimately made a move in 5th because our kid was light years ahead of their grade but the school didn't test anything beyond a "4" (ahead by less than one grade level) and taught to the mean. That might have been ok, but not as the mean slid down year after year because high performing kids peeled off year after year. The ED at our school talks a good "equity" game but ignores the part of actually providing top flight education as a means to leveling the playing field. I refer to it in quiet as "Equity without Education".

In conversations with families at other DCPS ES and HRCS we found the same concerns and conversations were occurring. When we departed in 5th the school was demographically no different in 4th than it had been in 3rd or 2nd. In fact the only kids we lost to that point (other than the one who went overseas with State) were black kids who went private or in search of greener pastures. Unfortunately those kids were at the top of the class with our kid so we lost the rest of their cohort.

We are white and we left for more academic rigor and higher degree of accountability for disruptive behavior. So what's the narrative? Is this "white flight"? Does that term mean a white person leaving because there does not exist academic rigor, regardless of the demographic make-up of the school? Or does it mean a white person leaving to get away from black people? By arguing they are the same thing you are in fact making an argument that black=low performing or lowered expectations. That seems a more racist and insidious vision than allowing for the fact that all parents striving for excellent academic outcomes may and can leave for better options. It is lazy and entirely too easy to blame race and white flight. Doing so gives schools a pass for failing to provide top flight education for all enrolled students. We left. We don't suffer liberal guilt over it. If it makes DCUM or families that remain feel better to say it was racism that's fine by me. My kid is in an immeasurably improved environment at an incredibly rigorous school with a HS path. And the HRCS just lost one of the few remaining kids more than a grade level ahead. The school and community can look inward or outward at this point - no skin off my back. But continuing to just blame white flight is exacerbating the problem, lowering Tier and test scores and causing the demand for the school to plummet as against the last 6 years.

… where did you go then? Private? If not at a DCPS and no longer at your charter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of outright lies or at least confusion here. The only majority white public schools in DC are DCPS neighborhood schools, mostly in NW but also on the Hill. Charter schools in DC serve the same or higher proportions or POC and low income families as DCPS does.

That's right. Our charter is "whiter" than DCPS overall, but only about 30% white, while 50% black, with the rest a mix of Latino, multi-racial, and a few Asians. Seems pretty diverse to me, both in terms of race and SES.

Only diverse charters are DCI, LATIN and Basis

There are few options for MC and UMC whites too
Unless you are in North White DC

Funny story, Deal and Basis have almost the same black/white stats. And Latin has same % whites but @10% more black students overall.

Yeah that’s the point

Except it ignores what you refer to as "diversity" as against the broader enrolled population. Ward 3 enrolled population is 49% white and 19% black. DC enrolled population is 12% white and 65% black. A measure of diversity would expect the percentage in a school to reflect (directionally at least) the overall population. By that measure Latin and Basis (Basis in particular) is much whiter than expected diversity would indicate. Deal's white population is actually reflective if the IB demos. The idea that diversity should be considered "achieved" when there's an even percentage ignores considerations of existing populations. There are 62 Pacific Islanders/Hawaiians enrolled in DC. It would be silly for me to complain that the absence of an even number of that group in my school indicates a lack of diversity.

Using the word "diversity" without context or definition is nothing more than a Rorschach test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

That has not been my experience. Setting aside that it ignores all of Latin and Basis that don't come from Ward 3, it is kind of offensive to black families to suggest that they (and by "they" I mean that's demographically what the rest of DCPS and HRCS are) are not seeking alternatives because their kids aren't being challenged. In point of fact, high performing black kids are MORE likely to peel off in my experience precisely because these same "good" ES and HRCS test scores tell us that the scores for black kids are markedly lower, and parents are concerned that merely "on grade level" will be good enough for their black student.

We were very happy at our HRCS but ultimately made a move in 5th because our kid was light years ahead of their grade but the school didn't test anything beyond a "4" (ahead by less than one grade level) and taught to the mean. That might have been ok, but not as the mean slid down year after year because high performing kids peeled off year after year. The ED at our school talks a good "equity" game but ignores the part of actually providing top flight education as a means to leveling the playing field. I refer to it in quiet as "Equity without Education".

In conversations with families at other DCPS ES and HRCS we found the same concerns and conversations were occurring. When we departed in 5th the school was demographically no different in 4th than it had been in 3rd or 2nd. In fact the only kids we lost to that point (other than the one who went overseas with State) were black kids who went private or in search of greener pastures. Unfortunately those kids were at the top of the class with our kid so we lost the rest of their cohort.

We are white and we left for more academic rigor and higher degree of accountability for disruptive behavior. So what's the narrative? Is this "white flight"? Does that term mean a white person leaving because there does not exist academic rigor, regardless of the demographic make-up of the school? Or does it mean a white person leaving to get away from black people? By arguing they are the same thing you are in fact making an argument that black=low performing or lowered expectations. That seems a more racist and insidious vision than allowing for the fact that all parents striving for excellent academic outcomes may and can leave for better options. It is lazy and entirely too easy to blame race and white flight. Doing so gives schools a pass for failing to provide top flight education for all enrolled students. We left. We don't suffer liberal guilt over it. If it makes DCUM or families that remain feel better to say it was racism that's fine by me. My kid is in an immeasurably improved environment at an incredibly rigorous school with a HS path. And the HRCS just lost one of the few remaining kids more than a grade level ahead. The school and community can look inward or outward at this point - no skin off my back. But continuing to just blame white flight is exacerbating the problem, lowering Tier and test scores and causing the demand for the school to plummet as against the last 6 years.

… where did you go then? Private? If not at a DCPS and no longer at your charter?

Basis. And, post-script, the HRCS from which we came has its smallest ever waitlist (at least against common lottery published data). I really hope the BoD starts paying attention before it is too late. Sadly, I fear the ED has insulated herself from criticism by cloaking herself in an "Equity" shield that none of the Board members are willing to question. The ship may go down on their watch, but at least no one will accuse them of being racist!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

That has not been my experience. Setting aside that it ignores all of Latin and Basis that don't come from Ward 3, it is kind of offensive to black families to suggest that they (and by "they" I mean that's demographically what the rest of DCPS and HRCS are) are not seeking alternatives because their kids aren't being challenged. In point of fact, high performing black kids are MORE likely to peel off in my experience precisely because these same "good" ES and HRCS test scores tell us that the scores for black kids are markedly lower, and parents are concerned that merely "on grade level" will be good enough for their black student.

We were very happy at our HRCS but ultimately made a move in 5th because our kid was light years ahead of their grade but the school didn't test anything beyond a "4" (ahead by less than one grade level) and taught to the mean. That might have been ok, but not as the mean slid down year after year because high performing kids peeled off year after year. The ED at our school talks a good "equity" game but ignores the part of actually providing top flight education as a means to leveling the playing field. I refer to it in quiet as "Equity without Education".

In conversations with families at other DCPS ES and HRCS we found the same concerns and conversations were occurring. When we departed in 5th the school was demographically no different in 4th than it had been in 3rd or 2nd. In fact the only kids we lost to that point (other than the one who went overseas with State) were black kids who went private or in search of greener pastures. Unfortunately those kids were at the top of the class with our kid so we lost the rest of their cohort.

We are white and we left for more academic rigor and higher degree of accountability for disruptive behavior. So what's the narrative? Is this "white flight"? Does that term mean a white person leaving because there does not exist academic rigor, regardless of the demographic make-up of the school? Or does it mean a white person leaving to get away from black people? By arguing they are the same thing you are in fact making an argument that black=low performing or lowered expectations. That seems a more racist and insidious vision than allowing for the fact that all parents striving for excellent academic outcomes may and can leave for better options. It is lazy and entirely too easy to blame race and white flight. Doing so gives schools a pass for failing to provide top flight education for all enrolled students. We left. We don't suffer liberal guilt over it. If it makes DCUM or families that remain feel better to say it was racism that's fine by me. My kid is in an immeasurably improved environment at an incredibly rigorous school with a HS path. And the HRCS just lost one of the few remaining kids more than a grade level ahead. The school and community can look inward or outward at this point - no skin off my back. But continuing to just blame white flight is exacerbating the problem, lowering Tier and test scores and causing the demand for the school to plummet as against the last 6 years.

… where did you go then? Private? If not at a DCPS and no longer at your charter?

Basis. And, post-script, the HRCS from which we came has its smallest ever waitlist (at least against common lottery published data). I really hope the BoD starts paying attention before it is too late. Sadly, I fear the ED has insulated herself from criticism by cloaking herself in an "Equity" shield that none of the Board members are willing to question. The ship may go down on their watch, but at least no one will accuse them of being racist!

I know what school this is. My kids are also light years ahead academically and I have no expectation that the school will challenge my kids in core ELA and math. But I don't care, because we are providing that rigor outside of school, and frankly, doubt any DC public school (or G&T programs outside DC) would be on par. Further, our kids are both JHU-CTYers and we take advantage of those offerings as well.

Why do we stay? Our kids otherwise enjoy the school and (unlike other kids) suffer nothing from the lack of "rigor." At any rate, we plan to stay through 5th grade and then jump to private for middle school onward, as we aren't really interested in any of the charter options, even if we could bank on getting in.

FWIW, we are not white.

[Anonymous]

Can we stay focused on MS and HS? Elementary is not a factor in this discussion and light years away 9 year olds also do not factor in
And this discussion is not about the UMC black families that can afford private and I do believe that all families worry about their kids and want what is best
We are talking about what options there are for MC and UMC white families that live in DC and want more diversity in their schools and what comfort level they have to be the only white kid in the school.
Most schools are predominantly black and many of those kids live out of bounds over the river and in MD which is a whole other story
We live under the mason Dixon line and it makes sense demographically but we still need to acknowledge that many of us who moved here to be in DC and experience this great city are met with a terrible school system overall and those of us that can not afford private or get a lottery spot are lost in what to do.
I don’t think the Washington natives are raciest and I think for the most part DC implants are not racists but there is an obvious cultural difference. Many of my DC (dear child) friends are black but I don’t know where they live and have never met their parents because they are not involved at school and it leave loss in their social life. great kids! just limited

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we stay focused on MS and HS? Elementary is not a factor in this discussion and light years away 9 year olds also do not factor in
And this discussion is not about the UMC black families that can afford private and I do believe that all families worry about their kids and want what is best
We are talking about what options there are for MC and UMC white families that live in DC and want more diversity in their schools and what comfort level they have to be the only white kid in the school.
Most schools are predominantly black and many of those kids live out of bounds over the river and in MD which is a whole other story
We live under the mason Dixon line and it makes sense demographically but we still need to acknowledge that many of us who moved here to be in DC and experience this great city are met with a terrible school system overall and those of us that can not afford private or get a lottery spot are lost in what to do.
I don’t think the Washington natives are raciest and I think for the most part DC implants are not racists but there is an obvious cultural difference. Many of my DC (dear child) friends are black but I don’t know where they live and have never met their parents because they are not involved at school and it leave loss in their social life. great kids! just limited

If all the black kids at your school are low-SES and all the white kids are UMC, then it's just toxic diversity.

[Anonymous]

WTF how many poor white people live in DC?
How is it toxic? It is what it is