If DC public charters are created to help the underprivileged is it bad to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

You are right that one family wont make a difference, but when you look at a place like DCUM that has threads upon threads shaming people for going to any DCPS middle school besides Deal, any HS besides Banneker/Walls/Wilson, and conisder at least 50% of ES IB options as unusable because of "Test Scores" (which you are either unaware or are blissfully aware just equal demographics), you get this lack of diversity via group think.

But you are misdiagnosing the problem. Yes, if you just read DCUM, you would think people are moving to charters for MS because of test scores exclusively, as a dog whistle for race. That's how a lot of people on these boards think about it.

But if you spend time with actual parents discussing these issues, it's more complicated. It's one thing to invest in a DCPS ES, ignoring test scores because you understand they are a proxy for demographics. Great! We have already done that and love our ES.

But would you send your kid to a high school that doesn't even offer Calculus as a stand-alone class? Would you feel comfortable with your kid who loves reading and writing to be spending their MS and HS years in English classes where most of the class is testing below grade level? Are you comfortable with a school culture where truancy is high and most extra-curriculars are focused on athletics? These are all questions parents have to ask themselves. It's not just about test scores, though they play a role. It's looking at the schools as a whole and figuring out if you feel your kid could do well there, could get the preparation they need for college and adulthood there. It's sometimes a really hard question.

And thus many people who love their DCPS ES wind up in charters for MS, focused on a small group of charter and high performing HS, and looking into private options or moving to the suburbs. You can say it's racism or just white people afraid of "true diversity" (ignoring the many black families who make these exact same choices all the time). But doing so won't solve the problem, which is that many MS and HS in DC simply do not prepare their students for the next level of their educations. There are many reasons for that, and it's absolutely a chicken/egg issue because it's hard to impose these schools if people won't just sent their kids to them. But it's also hard to send your kids to a school like this when you feel their future is on the line.

I do not know what the answer is. I have learned not to be glib on these subjects because they are very, very tricky and cannot actually just be boiled down to people making racist or classist personal choices.

PP you are 100% correct. But the "its a dog whistle" people will continue to believe its just racism...until of course, they have to make the same choice themselves.

[Anonymous]

if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if the teachers union runs DCPS, tell that to the union. And the chancellor.

There is that slice of parents saying DCPS isn't for me because my kid won't get challenged. But that's largely upper class parents not in or not satisfied with the JKLM/Deal/Wilson(JR) pyramid.

That's - how many? and it's mixed motivations for most of these parents, right? Because they don't want the demographics and the "teaching down to the dumb" that they are certain is happening at the demographically different schools in their neighborhood.

There is certainly a slice. However, there are middle and upper-middle class Black parents that also won't touch DCPS. That is a fairly large cohort from what I can tell. Those parents are critical to improving DCPS. No one wants to hear that thou.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

You are right that one family wont make a difference, but when you look at a place like DCUM that has threads upon threads shaming people for going to any DCPS middle school besides Deal, any HS besides Banneker/Walls/Wilson, and conisder at least 50% of ES IB options as unusable because of "Test Scores" (which you are either unaware or are blissfully aware just equal demographics), you get this lack of diversity via group think.

But you are misdiagnosing the problem. Yes, if you just read DCUM, you would think people are moving to charters for MS because of test scores exclusively, as a dog whistle for race. That's how a lot of people on these boards think about it.

But if you spend time with actual parents discussing these issues, it's more complicated. It's one thing to invest in a DCPS ES, ignoring test scores because you understand they are a proxy for demographics. Great! We have already done that and love our ES.

But would you send your kid to a high school that doesn't even offer Calculus as a stand-alone class? Would you feel comfortable with your kid who loves reading and writing to be spending their MS and HS years in English classes where most of the class is testing below grade level? Are you comfortable with a school culture where truancy is high and most extra-curriculars are focused on athletics? These are all questions parents have to ask themselves. It's not just about test scores, though they play a role. It's looking at the schools as a whole and figuring out if you feel your kid could do well there, could get the preparation they need for college and adulthood there. It's sometimes a really hard question.

And thus many people who love their DCPS ES wind up in charters for MS, focused on a small group of charter and high performing HS, and looking into private options or moving to the suburbs. You can say it's racism or just white people afraid of "true diversity" (ignoring the many black families who make these exact same choices all the time). But doing so won't solve the problem, which is that many MS and HS in DC simply do not prepare their students for the next level of their educations. There are many reasons for that, and it's absolutely a chicken/egg issue because it's hard to impose these schools if people won't just sent their kids to them. But it's also hard to send your kids to a school like this when you feel their future is on the line.

I do not know what the answer is. I have learned not to be glib on these subjects because they are very, very tricky and cannot actually just be boiled down to people making racist or classist personal choices.

We are at our inbound Title DCPS now in K and the issues that you raise are already presenting themselves. My K kid, the only white kid in class, is at or above level for the material. One other student is in the same position. At the last parent teacher conference the teacher confirmed she and the para are not able to attend to my kid because of the greater need of so many other students who are below level. My kid gets extra practice on the iPad. In K. I know kids reach milestones at different ages and stages but I am not optimistic about my kid getting individual time and attention or being challenged in ES, because the needs of the other kids are so great. And I don’t want to take away from helping those kids, many of whom are facing food and housing insecurity among other challenges. But I don’t want my kid to miss out either.

Also a thought on diversity - my neighborhood is quite racially and socioeconomically diverse. Lots of UMC white families, some UMC black/biracial families, and lots of black and Hispanic families who are at or below the poverty line. But our inbound school is not at all diverse, because most UMC families are at charters. A few are at privates. We like the teachers and the administration at our DCPS, but it is very difficult to be the only family we know choosing that school, and it has been difficult to make friends with families there because the socioeconomic and cultural differences and language barriers are huge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean you can play this game forever in DC.

We are at a Title 1 DCPS (middle class white family) and we often have to have a discussion about whether we will participate in a program because we know it is designed for the many at risk kids at our school and we don't want to take opportunities away from other kids. On the other hand, it's our school and we want to be part of the community. And we don't want our kid to feel separate and apart.

Example: the school has heavily subsidized after care. It's ridiculously inexpensive. Is it wrong for us to use it even though we can afford to pay more? In the end we do use it because what is the alternative? For our kid to to go to some more expensive aftercare program somewhere else so that we don't feel guilty using a subsidized service? How would that look to the kids? It makes no sense. So we get a benefit we didn't earn and don't technically need, but it's really the most sensible outcome.

And then during the lottery each year we always feel a bit confused. Does it make more sense to stay and invest in our IB school (which we like!), or to acknowledge that this school is designed to serve the needs of a community we don't really belong to and lottery into a charter or OOB DCPS where the family community is more similar to us (whiter, more middle or upper middle class). I honestly don't know the answer. So far we've stayed out of loyalty to the school and because our kid is happy. Maybe we'll last until middle. It's really hard to know what the right thing to do it, especially when of course it's a crapshoot whether we even get into another school anyway.

Public school in DC is not for the faint of heart. Unless you live in a small number of school boundaries, you will at some point have to struggle with the question of whether to make a choice that serves your community or that serves your child, and then also to question what it even means to do right by your kid. There is no "set it and forget it" mode for most DC public school parents. You will have to wrestle with these questions.

Really appreciate this persepective- and I think you have boiled it down to the issue most parents have. The inability to "set it and forget it" means there is a constant bit of pressure weighing on you. Inevitability something will force you to grapple with questions - sometimes on a more frequent basis than others. A this stress adds up. And the lack of a "right" answer is disheartening. And everyone is making these same choices, with the same stress, but different factors- people you like, respect, etc- and you all come to different conclusions- but again recognize that there is no right answer. Its exhausting. And that I think is more why people leave DC. They are tired of having to think about it and question it and constantly confirm where they stand when so many places give you one and only one option and you never have to think about it again.

True, but it also means we have a ton of choices. In MCPS, where there are no choices, I have friends of color who's kids is the only black girls in her classes. A crappy math curriculum was horrific, but there was no way to avoid it. And if you live in the western part of the district, there aren't test in options anymore for MS.

In DC we may have chaos, but it also means we get to pick from a variety of options. In other places, not so much.

There's a lot wrong in this analysis. First of all, you have work HARD to choose a school that segregated even in MCPS. Yes, if you actively seek out a $3m home in Chevy Chase "for the schools," then you are actively choosing to put your Black child in a potentially hostile environment. But for the cost of choosing to live in-bounds for Burning Tree or Carderock Springs, you could also choose NOT to live there.

There are also still test-in magnets. There's also now universal testing and a lottery for kids over a certain threshold, which you can argue is not a perfect system but is equally accessible to all.

Basically, neither system is perfect but demonizing another school district with false narratives shouldn't be necessary in order to make your case about DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

There are no schools that are 90% white in DC, but lots that are 90-99% black. Just to clarify.

Is anyone on the thread confused about that? That's specifically why PP's complaint that white parents are "afraid to have [their kids] around a diverse group of kids" is weird. If you are a white parent in DC public schools (DCPS or charter) you, by definition, are comfortable with the idea of diversity in schools. Of course there are parents who gravitate towards the schools that are 60-70% white (which do exist) and if you want to target those parents for that choice, that's one thing. But generally the issue is just a parent not wanting their kid to be the only white kid in a class, or only one of two (we have been in this situation, FTR).

I have a friend in a different part of the country who I explained these dynamics to and she couldn't relate. Her kid goes to a diverse public school in another urban area that is about 30% white, 30% non-white Hispanic, and maybe 20% black. When she described the racial dynamics (most kids have at least one friend of another race, the school does a lot of multi-cultural events and it's not just head-nodding at different groups -- they are represented by students and staff and families at the events) I felt very jealous. That's what a truly diverse school would look like. But in DC, because so many white parents choose private or head to the suburbs, and there is a lot of self-segregation among POC groups, it's just not like that and probably never will be. You have to adjust your expectations as far as diverse environments.

Huh?
Deal, the whitest DCPS middle schook, is only 46% white, 28% black, 16% hispanic. https://www.dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/1-0405
Hardy is 40% black, 32% white, 18% hispanic. https://www.dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/1-0246/profile

Sounds exactly the same. I'm not sure where you live, but it sounds like you have small kids and don't actually know the profiles of DC schools.

No, I just don't live in the Deal-Wilson pyramid. That's great if you can afford to either live IB for Deal or get in my lottery. The vast majority of DC students can't do either, which leaves the remaining DCPS MSs (which are not diverse at all), or charters. The charters are significantly more diverse. One reason many white parents in DC choose charters over their by-right MS is that they don't want their kid to be one of only a handful of white kids. Finding true diversity in DCPS is quite hard.

Perhaps you need to acquaint yourself with the demographics of DC schools outside of upper NW before weighing in on this.

You just said there are not truly diverse schools in DC like the one your friend sends her kids to. I just showed you that you are incorrect.

Then you are arguing that "the charters are significantly more diverse" ok. So those also meet your criteria.

Fundamentally, only around 25% of DC's kids are white, so I'm just not sure how you would expect true diversity at every DCPS school.

I never said there are no diverse schools in DC. I said that the PP (maybe you) who said white parents are afraid of diversity was incorrect, since white parents are not looking for white schools, they are just looking for schools where their kid is not the only white kid, or not just one of a few. They are looking for diversity, not afraid of it.

Your response was that Deal is diverse. Yes. And also not an option for most people in the city. As you yourself point out, Deal is the most diverse MS in DCPS, by a lot. Hardy has similar demographics. So the two MS in the Wilson pyramid attract a lot of white kids, which means that if you live in any other part of the city, the MSs are significantly less diverse. You seem to think this proves your point but it actually proves mine -- true diversity is hard to come by in DCPS.

I'm not "arguing" that charter MSs are more diverse. They are more diverse than most DCPS MSs (including pretty much all MSs outside the Wilson pyramid). This isn't some nefarious accusation. It's a demographic fact.

I also never said I expected schools in DC to all be truly diverse. I don't expect anything. I'm simply describing the situation, which is that much of the racial diversity in DC public schools has migrated to charters, especially at the MS and HS level.

My kid doesn't even go to a charter.

I have no idea why you are being so hostile. I'm just describing the situation, which is not a bunch of white parents cowering from diversity. That was an inaccurate description of what is going on, and I corrected it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

You are right that one family wont make a difference, but when you look at a place like DCUM that has threads upon threads shaming people for going to any DCPS middle school besides Deal, any HS besides Banneker/Walls/Wilson, and conisder at least 50% of ES IB options as unusable because of "Test Scores" (which you are either unaware or are blissfully aware just equal demographics), you get this lack of diversity via group think.

But you are misdiagnosing the problem. Yes, if you just read DCUM, you would think people are moving to charters for MS because of test scores exclusively, as a dog whistle for race. That's how a lot of people on these boards think about it.

But if you spend time with actual parents discussing these issues, it's more complicated. It's one thing to invest in a DCPS ES, ignoring test scores because you understand they are a proxy for demographics. Great! We have already done that and love our ES.

But would you send your kid to a high school that doesn't even offer Calculus as a stand-alone class? Would you feel comfortable with your kid who loves reading and writing to be spending their MS and HS years in English classes where most of the class is testing below grade level? Are you comfortable with a school culture where truancy is high and most extra-curriculars are focused on athletics? These are all questions parents have to ask themselves. It's not just about test scores, though they play a role. It's looking at the schools as a whole and figuring out if you feel your kid could do well there, could get the preparation they need for college and adulthood there. It's sometimes a really hard question.

And thus many people who love their DCPS ES wind up in charters for MS, focused on a small group of charter and high performing HS, and looking into private options or moving to the suburbs. You can say it's racism or just white people afraid of "true diversity" (ignoring the many black families who make these exact same choices all the time). But doing so won't solve the problem, which is that many MS and HS in DC simply do not prepare their students for the next level of their educations. There are many reasons for that, and it's absolutely a chicken/egg issue because it's hard to impose these schools if people won't just sent their kids to them. But it's also hard to send your kids to a school like this when you feel their future is on the line.

I do not know what the answer is. I have learned not to be glib on these subjects because they are very, very tricky and cannot actually just be boiled down to people making racist or classist personal choices.

PP you are 100% correct. But the "its a dog whistle" people will continue to believe its just racism...until of course, they have to make the same choice themselves.

In any conversation, race is going to be the elephant in the room. We also know from actual research studies that White parents in particular are very bad at identifying "good" schools. They will consistently choose a lower performing school if it has more White kids and will find excuses for not sending their kids to a high performing global majority school. Usually they'll say, "Well, we don't like it because they seem to teach to the test and we're looking for a more progressive public school environment." So majority minority schools are damned if they do and damned if they don't - White parents just won't choose them.

But there also also other factors in the mix that are sometimes hard to talk about. A school with a lot of low income kids is going to be a school where a subset of the kids have experienced real trauma. That trauma works its way out in the school environment, particularly toward the end of elementary school. They aren't bad kids, but they are sometimes kids who have witnessed and experienced violence, and who need a lot of help and support to process those experiences in healthy ways. A parent might reasonably decide that they don't want to wait around while a quarter of the class processes their trauma through acting out.

[Anonymous]

If you want a charter, don’t lie to yourself about choosing it’s program when you are really choosing its demographics.

They are not separable. It's incredibly difficult to teach, and simultaneously teaching students who vary widely in their current academic achievement is darn near impossible. If there's a school with lots of poor kids who are way above grade level academically, I'd be happy to send my kids there. But we chose a charter school with high achievement and few poor kids, and I understand that the school's ability to have the program they do is made possible by the student demographics. Those demographics are much richer and whiter than DC as a whole, but still much more racially and economically diverse than many area suburbs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

You are right that one family wont make a difference, but when you look at a place like DCUM that has threads upon threads shaming people for going to any DCPS middle school besides Deal, any HS besides Banneker/Walls/Wilson, and conisder at least 50% of ES IB options as unusable because of "Test Scores" (which you are either unaware or are blissfully aware just equal demographics), you get this lack of diversity via group think.

But you are misdiagnosing the problem. Yes, if you just read DCUM, you would think people are moving to charters for MS because of test scores exclusively, as a dog whistle for race. That's how a lot of people on these boards think about it.

But if you spend time with actual parents discussing these issues, it's more complicated. It's one thing to invest in a DCPS ES, ignoring test scores because you understand they are a proxy for demographics. Great! We have already done that and love our ES.

But would you send your kid to a high school that doesn't even offer Calculus as a stand-alone class? Would you feel comfortable with your kid who loves reading and writing to be spending their MS and HS years in English classes where most of the class is testing below grade level? Are you comfortable with a school culture where truancy is high and most extra-curriculars are focused on athletics? These are all questions parents have to ask themselves. It's not just about test scores, though they play a role. It's looking at the schools as a whole and figuring out if you feel your kid could do well there, could get the preparation they need for college and adulthood there. It's sometimes a really hard question.

And thus many people who love their DCPS ES wind up in charters for MS, focused on a small group of charter and high performing HS, and looking into private options or moving to the suburbs. You can say it's racism or just white people afraid of "true diversity" (ignoring the many black families who make these exact same choices all the time). But doing so won't solve the problem, which is that many MS and HS in DC simply do not prepare their students for the next level of their educations. There are many reasons for that, and it's absolutely a chicken/egg issue because it's hard to impose these schools if people won't just sent their kids to them. But it's also hard to send your kids to a school like this when you feel their future is on the line.

I do not know what the answer is. I have learned not to be glib on these subjects because they are very, very tricky and cannot actually just be boiled down to people making racist or classist personal choices.

PP you are 100% correct. But the "its a dog whistle" people will continue to believe its just racism...until of course, they have to make the same choice themselves.

In any conversation, race is going to be the elephant in the room. We also know from actual research studies that White parents in particular are very bad at identifying "good" schools. They will consistently choose a lower performing school if it has more White kids and will find excuses for not sending their kids to a high performing global majority school. Usually they'll say, "Well, we don't like it because they seem to teach to the test and we're looking for a more progressive public school environment." So majority minority schools are damned if they do and damned if they don't - White parents just won't choose them.

But there also also other factors in the mix that are sometimes hard to talk about. A school with a lot of low income kids is going to be a school where a subset of the kids have experienced real trauma. That trauma works its way out in the school environment, particularly toward the end of elementary school. They aren't bad kids, but they are sometimes kids who have witnessed and experienced violence, and who need a lot of help and support to process those experiences in healthy ways. A parent might reasonably decide that they don't want to wait around while a quarter of the class processes their trauma through acting out.

And then your reasonable parent will be called a racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

You are right that one family wont make a difference, but when you look at a place like DCUM that has threads upon threads shaming people for going to any DCPS middle school besides Deal, any HS besides Banneker/Walls/Wilson, and conisder at least 50% of ES IB options as unusable because of "Test Scores" (which you are either unaware or are blissfully aware just equal demographics), you get this lack of diversity via group think.

But you are misdiagnosing the problem. Yes, if you just read DCUM, you would think people are moving to charters for MS because of test scores exclusively, as a dog whistle for race. That's how a lot of people on these boards think about it.

But if you spend time with actual parents discussing these issues, it's more complicated. It's one thing to invest in a DCPS ES, ignoring test scores because you understand they are a proxy for demographics. Great! We have already done that and love our ES.

But would you send your kid to a high school that doesn't even offer Calculus as a stand-alone class? Would you feel comfortable with your kid who loves reading and writing to be spending their MS and HS years in English classes where most of the class is testing below grade level? Are you comfortable with a school culture where truancy is high and most extra-curriculars are focused on athletics? These are all questions parents have to ask themselves. It's not just about test scores, though they play a role. It's looking at the schools as a whole and figuring out if you feel your kid could do well there, could get the preparation they need for college and adulthood there. It's sometimes a really hard question.

And thus many people who love their DCPS ES wind up in charters for MS, focused on a small group of charter and high performing HS, and looking into private options or moving to the suburbs. You can say it's racism or just white people afraid of "true diversity" (ignoring the many black families who make these exact same choices all the time). But doing so won't solve the problem, which is that many MS and HS in DC simply do not prepare their students for the next level of their educations. There are many reasons for that, and it's absolutely a chicken/egg issue because it's hard to impose these schools if people won't just sent their kids to them. But it's also hard to send your kids to a school like this when you feel their future is on the line.

I do not know what the answer is. I have learned not to be glib on these subjects because they are very, very tricky and cannot actually just be boiled down to people making racist or classist personal choices.

PP you are 100% correct. But the "its a dog whistle" people will continue to believe its just racism...until of course, they have to make the same choice themselves.

In any conversation, race is going to be the elephant in the room. We also know from actual research studies that White parents in particular are very bad at identifying "good" schools. They will consistently choose a lower performing school if it has more White kids and will find excuses for not sending their kids to a high performing global majority school. Usually they'll say, "Well, we don't like it because they seem to teach to the test and we're looking for a more progressive public school environment." So majority minority schools are damned if they do and damned if they don't - White parents just won't choose them.

But there also also other factors in the mix that are sometimes hard to talk about. A school with a lot of low income kids is going to be a school where a subset of the kids have experienced real trauma. That trauma works its way out in the school environment, particularly toward the end of elementary school. They aren't bad kids, but they are sometimes kids who have witnessed and experienced violence, and who need a lot of help and support to process those experiences in healthy ways. A parent might reasonably decide that they don't want to wait around while a quarter of the class processes their trauma through acting out.

We’re in Petworth and have seen this happen so many times. It’s really something to witness folks twisting themselves in knots to explain their decision making.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want a charter, don’t lie to yourself about choosing it’s program when you are really choosing its demographics.

They are not separable. It's incredibly difficult to teach, and simultaneously teaching students who vary widely in their current academic achievement is darn near impossible. If there's a school with lots of poor kids who are way above grade level academically, I'd be happy to send my kids there. But we chose a charter school with high achievement and few poor kids, and I understand that the school's ability to have the program they do is made possible by the student demographics. Those demographics are much richer and whiter than DC as a whole, but still much more racially and economically diverse than many area suburbs.

Yeah -- the demographics have a material impact on the school atmosphere, environment, and outcomes. So it makes perfect sense for a family, of any race/SES, to consider demographics when selecting a school. For example, I'm black and would avoid sending my children to a school that is demograpically-dominated (+75%+) by poor black children and no middle-class blacks. And yes, that includes KIPP. That kind of situation just doesn't work out well for UMC black kids (especially boys) for a whole host of reasons that should be obvious, but probably aren't to some. Now, that sort of factoring may have different implications when practiced by white (or non-black) folks, but I'm not going to scrutinize the choices of other people when I'm essentially compelled to make the same or similar choices, even if I'm making those choices for different reasons, or out of different concerns.

Of course, that's the crux of systematic racism, isn't it? Doing what I believe to be best/necessary for my black children operates to further entrench racial inequality, at least to some degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want a charter, don’t lie to yourself about choosing it’s program when you are really choosing its demographics.

They are not separable. It's incredibly difficult to teach, and simultaneously teaching students who vary widely in their current academic achievement is darn near impossible. If there's a school with lots of poor kids who are way above grade level academically, I'd be happy to send my kids there. But we chose a charter school with high achievement and few poor kids, and I understand that the school's ability to have the program they do is made possible by the student demographics. Those demographics are much richer and whiter than DC as a whole, but still much more racially and economically diverse than many area suburbs.

Yeah -- the demographics have a material impact on the school atmosphere, environment, and outcomes. So it makes perfect sense for a family, of any race/SES, to consider demographics when selecting a school. For example, I'm black and would avoid sending my children to a school that is demograpically-dominated (+75%+) by poor black children and no middle-class blacks. And yes, that includes KIPP. That kind of situation just doesn't work out well for UMC black kids (especially boys) for a whole host of reasons that should be obvious, but probably aren't to some. Now, that sort of factoring may have different implications when practiced by white (or non-black) folks, but I'm not going to scrutinize the choices of other people when I'm essentially compelled to make the same or similar choices, even if I'm making those choices for different reasons, or out of different concerns.

Of course, that's the crux of systematic racism, isn't it? Doing what I believe to be best/necessary for my black children operates to further entrench racial inequality, at least to some degree.

But the problem comes when UMC white folks assume schools’ performance and environment based on those demographics. Not all, but many DCPS schools with <10% white kids are safe and nurturing environments, even in upper elementary. We’re at one and are having many few behavioral issues in mid elementary than friends in some of the charters. Not to say your black children would have the same experience as my kids, but my kids’ experience is relevant to many of the folks that aren’t even considering non-charters.

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Anonymous wrote:This is a sincere question

If many of the public charters are created to help the underprivileged do they not want any white kids to attend?
I know they can’t say no but if you get a spot is it Ok especially if your local HS under the poverty line anyway?

So all minority kids are underprivileged? It's probably best for you to avoid any school like you are describing. It won't go well.

all minority kids aren't underprivileged but just about all underprivileged kids in DC are minority.

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Anonymous wrote:I mean you can play this game forever in DC.

We are at a Title 1 DCPS (middle class white family) and we often have to have a discussion about whether we will participate in a program because we know it is designed for the many at risk kids at our school and we don't want to take opportunities away from other kids. On the other hand, it's our school and we want to be part of the community. And we don't want our kid to feel separate and apart.

Example: the school has heavily subsidized after care. It's ridiculously inexpensive. Is it wrong for us to use it even though we can afford to pay more? In the end we do use it because what is the alternative? For our kid to to go to some more expensive aftercare program somewhere else so that we don't feel guilty using a subsidized service? How would that look to the kids? It makes no sense. So we get a benefit we didn't earn and don't technically need, but it's really the most sensible outcome.

And then during the lottery each year we always feel a bit confused. Does it make more sense to stay and invest in our IB school (which we like!), or to acknowledge that this school is designed to serve the needs of a community we don't really belong to and lottery into a charter or OOB DCPS where the family community is more similar to us (whiter, more middle or upper middle class). I honestly don't know the answer. So far we've stayed out of loyalty to the school and because our kid is happy. Maybe we'll last until middle. It's really hard to know what the right thing to do it, especially when of course it's a crapshoot whether we even get into another school anyway.

Public school in DC is not for the faint of heart. Unless you live in a small number of school boundaries, you will at some point have to struggle with the question of whether to make a choice that serves your community or that serves your child, and then also to question what it even means to do right by your kid. There is no "set it and forget it" mode for most DC public school parents. You will have to wrestle with these questions.

Really appreciate this persepective- and I think you have boiled it down to the issue most parents have. The inability to "set it and forget it" means there is a constant bit of pressure weighing on you. Inevitability something will force you to grapple with questions - sometimes on a more frequent basis than others. A this stress adds up. And the lack of a "right" answer is disheartening. And everyone is making these same choices, with the same stress, but different factors- people you like, respect, etc- and you all come to different conclusions- but again recognize that there is no right answer. Its exhausting. And that I think is more why people leave DC. They are tired of having to think about it and question it and constantly confirm where they stand when so many places give you one and only one option and you never have to think about it again.

True, but it also means we have a ton of choices. In MCPS, where there are no choices, I have friends of color who's kids is the only black girls in her classes. A crappy math curriculum was horrific, but there was no way to avoid it. And if you live in the western part of the district, there aren't test in options anymore for MS.

In DC we may have chaos, but it also means we get to pick from a variety of options. In other places, not so much.

There's a lot wrong in this analysis. First of all, you have work HARD to choose a school that segregated even in MCPS. Yes, if you actively seek out a $3m home in Chevy Chase "for the schools," then you are actively choosing to put your Black child in a potentially hostile environment. But for the cost of choosing to live in-bounds for Burning Tree or Carderock Springs, you could also choose NOT to live there.

There are also still test-in magnets. There's also now universal testing and a lottery for kids over a certain threshold, which you can argue is not a perfect system but is equally accessible to all.

Basically, neither system is perfect but demonizing another school district with false narratives shouldn't be necessary in order to make your case about DCPS.

No you don't. Westland MS currently has only 63 black students in the entire school of 764 students.... Let's pretend the split is 50/50 male/female... so that's 31.5 black girls across three grades. That's about 10 black girls in each grade of 255 students. Very easy to be the only black girl in a school whose boundaries include all of downtown Bethesda. Not just $3m homes.

Also, if the idea is that you can are "actively choosing to put your Black child in a hostile environment" but its impossible for the same control expectations to be thrust up DC residents? You can move to Deal or Hardy catchment area and get your ideal racial balance as well.

And the test in magnets no longer apply to middle school for the southwestern half of the county. So no different than DC if you live there.

The narrative isn't false. It's just that you need to stop assuming the grass is always greener.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I swear, white people complain about everything! This is embarrassing! Homeschool your kids if you’re afraid to have them around a diverse group of kids.

People are actually talking about lack of diversity. A school that is 84% black, 8% white, 6% Latino, and 2% AAPI? Not diverse. This is like saying that a black family who chooses not to send their children to the 90% white charter school are "afraid of diversity." They are afraid that their child will not fit in or feel welcome. Come on.

There are no schools that are 90% white in DC, but lots that are 90-99% black. Just to clarify.

Is anyone on the thread confused about that? That's specifically why PP's complaint that white parents are "afraid to have [their kids] around a diverse group of kids" is weird. If you are a white parent in DC public schools (DCPS or charter) you, by definition, are comfortable with the idea of diversity in schools. Of course there are parents who gravitate towards the schools that are 60-70% white (which do exist) and if you want to target those parents for that choice, that's one thing. But generally the issue is just a parent not wanting their kid to be the only white kid in a class, or only one of two (we have been in this situation, FTR).

I have a friend in a different part of the country who I explained these dynamics to and she couldn't relate. Her kid goes to a diverse public school in another urban area that is about 30% white, 30% non-white Hispanic, and maybe 20% black. When she described the racial dynamics (most kids have at least one friend of another race, the school does a lot of multi-cultural events and it's not just head-nodding at different groups -- they are represented by students and staff and families at the events) I felt very jealous. That's what a truly diverse school would look like. But in DC, because so many white parents choose private or head to the suburbs, and there is a lot of self-segregation among POC groups, it's just not like that and probably never will be. You have to adjust your expectations as far as diverse environments.

Huh?
Deal, the whitest DCPS middle schook, is only 46% white, 28% black, 16% hispanic. https://www.dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/1-0405
Hardy is 40% black, 32% white, 18% hispanic. https://www.dcschoolreportcard.org/schools/1-0246/profile

Sounds exactly the same. I'm not sure where you live, but it sounds like you have small kids and don't actually know the profiles of DC schools.

No, I just don't live in the Deal-Wilson pyramid. That's great if you can afford to either live IB for Deal or get in my lottery. The vast majority of DC students can't do either, which leaves the remaining DCPS MSs (which are not diverse at all), or charters. The charters are significantly more diverse. One reason many white parents in DC choose charters over their by-right MS is that they don't want their kid to be one of only a handful of white kids. Finding true diversity in DCPS is quite hard.

Perhaps you need to acquaint yourself with the demographics of DC schools outside of upper NW before weighing in on this.

You just said there are not truly diverse schools in DC like the one your friend sends her kids to. I just showed you that you are incorrect.

Then you are arguing that "the charters are significantly more diverse" ok. So those also meet your criteria.

Fundamentally, only around 25% of DC's kids are white, so I'm just not sure how you would expect true diversity at every DCPS school.

I never said there are no diverse schools in DC. I said that the PP (maybe you) who said white parents are afraid of diversity was incorrect, since white parents are not looking for white schools, they are just looking for schools where their kid is not the only white kid, or not just one of a few. They are looking for diversity, not afraid of it.

Your response was that Deal is diverse. Yes. And also not an option for most people in the city. As you yourself point out, Deal is the most diverse MS in DCPS, by a lot. Hardy has similar demographics. So the two MS in the Wilson pyramid attract a lot of white kids, which means that if you live in any other part of the city, the MSs are significantly less diverse. You seem to think this proves your point but it actually proves mine -- true diversity is hard to come by in DCPS.

I'm not "arguing" that charter MSs are more diverse. They are more diverse than most DCPS MSs (including pretty much all MSs outside the Wilson pyramid). This isn't some nefarious accusation. It's a demographic fact.

I also never said I expected schools in DC to all be truly diverse. I don't expect anything. I'm simply describing the situation, which is that much of the racial diversity in DC public schools has migrated to charters, especially at the MS and HS level.

My kid doesn't even go to a charter.

I have no idea why you are being so hostile. I'm just describing the situation, which is not a bunch of white parents cowering from diversity. That was an inaccurate description of what is going on, and I corrected it.

I just don't see how you can say much of the diversity is in charters when 2000 middle school students attend those two schools alone.