Trump DOJ to prosecute universities for anti-white affirmative action policies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

[Anonymous]

Most in U.S. Oppose Colleges Considering Race in Admissions

http://www.gallup.com/poll/193508/oppose-colleges-considering-race-admissions.aspx

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most in U.S. Oppose Colleges Considering Race in Admissions

http://www.gallup.com/poll/193508/oppose-colleges-considering-race-admissions.aspx

Fascinating. A greater percentage of blacks think race should not be a factor than do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Name me where qualified White applicants are being passed for Black ones? When Black with a college degree have 2-3 times the unemployment RATE as WHITES. As far as Asians being resentful is absurd, they aren't forced to immigrate to a country where Affirmative Action has existed DECADES before they voluntarily came here. Thousands of other countries and colleges outside the US they could attend and hundreds of other countries their parents could immigrate too, or just stay in their native country. Once again how are they losing spots when they are 2-3 times their native population at every ELITE COLLEGE. LOL You guys want to still push this asian victimhood nonsense. Like I pointed out all POVERTY aint the SAME

Dude. Many Asian-Americans, particularly Chinese, immigrated to the US in the 19th Century to work on railroads. Also, remember Japanese-
American internment camps? Those ethnic Japanese were land- and business-owners at a time when there was still Jim Crow in the South.

You seem to be arguing that all Asian-Americans are recent immigrants, and that's simply wrong.

Not accurate that Asian population was smaller than the one now. Most of these Asian Applicants are foreigners or those whose family arrived mid 60's or later. The Asian u are describing are still working class poor living in China Towns. BTW if u compare native populations American Blacks surpass most groups internationally when it comes to college education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

DP, but assuming they weren't black, your grandparents likely had better job opportunities and were allowed to live in nice neighborhoods where the property values kept going up and the schools were nice.

My AA parents went to college, got nice middle class jobs, and when they moved into a nice neighborhood they slept nervously every night, waiting for a cross to be burned on their lawn or molotov cocktails to be thrown through the windows. They'd lived in a pretty nice house on the black side of town but had to wait until federal housing law allowed them to move into nice new developments. Still, people found ways to let our family know they didn't appreciate us being there.

And none of this discussion addresses the fact that the mishmash of state and local education policy in this country still means that where you live pretty much decides social mobility. If you're poor, you can work hard and be a little less poor. But getting into the middle class is a steep uphill climb; more are sliding down than climbing up.

But we seem to be just fine with that state of affairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

DP. I think everything you're saying about Jews is great, but the idea that black people don't value family or education is offensive. You can be forgiven for not knowing all the factors that have always made this a challenge for black people, but not for holding up stereotypes and assumptions as fact.

This is the kind of thing that always stops a good argument in its tracks. Because it proves how easy it is for believe the black candidate in front of you came from a broken home, doesn't have parents that value education, that their presence will bring values and standards down, etc.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but if your argument keeps running into that little racism speed bump, maybe shorten your learning loop and figure out why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

DP, but assuming they weren't black, your grandparents likely had better job opportunities and were allowed to live in nice neighborhoods where the property values kept going up and the schools were nice.

My AA parents went to college, got nice middle class jobs, and when they moved into a nice neighborhood they slept nervously every night, waiting for a cross to be burned on their lawn or molotov cocktails to be thrown through the windows. They'd lived in a pretty nice house on the black side of town but had to wait until federal housing law allowed them to move into nice new developments. Still, people found ways to let our family know they didn't appreciate us being there.

And none of this discussion addresses the fact that the mishmash of state and local education policy in this country still means that where you live pretty much decides social mobility. If you're poor, you can work hard and be a little less poor. But getting into the middle class is a steep uphill climb; more are sliding down than climbing up.

But we seem to be just fine with that state of affairs.

First, it's awful that you parents had to sleep nervously at night, for no other reason than they were black, fearing cross-burning and Molotov cocktails. It's reprehensible.

That said, however, you've made the same false assumption about whites having it easy. Contrary to your belief, my grandparents did not have any good job opportunities, nor the opportunity to move into a nice neighborhood and gain from rising property values. They arrived in this country penniless, and uneducated, and lived in a hot, 2-room NYC walk-up that consisted of a kitchen and a bedroom - think of the old Honeymooners with Jackie Gleason - where they shared the bathroom with the adjacent apartment. My grandmother was a seamstress (manual sewing machine), and my grandfather worked in a machinist factory. They eked out a living, but never to the point that they could buy a home, so they were neither recipients or beneficiaries of "generational wealth transfer." Despite that, my father was admitted to a prestigious program, no-tuition, and turned his life around. (I believe the program still exists in some form today, although I think it is called the McCauley program of CUNY. It is very competitive.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

DP. I think everything you're saying about Jews is great, but the idea that black people don't value family or education is offensive. You can be forgiven for not knowing all the factors that have always made this a challenge for black people, but not for holding up stereotypes and assumptions as fact.

This is the kind of thing that always stops a good argument in its tracks. Because it proves how easy it is for believe the black candidate in front of you came from a broken home, doesn't have parents that value education, that their presence will bring values and standards down, etc.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but if your argument keeps running into that little racism speed bump, maybe shorten your learning loop and figure out why.

NP. Problems associated with the serious lack of fatherless households have been well documented since the 1960s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not even white and I agree with this policy. There is no reason to discriminate against a qualified white student

Does not matter the color. If you qualify then you should be allowed in

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

DP, but assuming they weren't black, your grandparents likely had better job opportunities and were allowed to live in nice neighborhoods where the property values kept going up and the schools were nice.

My AA parents went to college, got nice middle class jobs, and when they moved into a nice neighborhood they slept nervously every night, waiting for a cross to be burned on their lawn or molotov cocktails to be thrown through the windows. They'd lived in a pretty nice house on the black side of town but had to wait until federal housing law allowed them to move into nice new developments. Still, people found ways to let our family know they didn't appreciate us being there.

And none of this discussion addresses the fact that the mishmash of state and local education policy in this country still means that where you live pretty much decides social mobility. If you're poor, you can work hard and be a little less poor. But getting into the middle class is a steep uphill climb; more are sliding down than climbing up.

But we seem to be just fine with that state of affairs.

First, it's awful that you parents had to sleep nervously at night, for no other reason than they were black, fearing cross-burning and Molotov cocktails. It's reprehensible.

That said, however, you've made the same false assumption about whites having it easy. Contrary to your belief, my grandparents did not have any good job opportunities, nor the opportunity to move into a nice neighborhood and gain from rising property values. They arrived in this country penniless, and uneducated, and lived in a hot, 2-room NYC walk-up that consisted of a kitchen and a bedroom - think of the old Honeymooners with Jackie Gleason - where they shared the bathroom with the adjacent apartment. My grandmother was a seamstress (manual sewing machine), and my grandfather worked in a machinist factory. They eked out a living, but never to the point that they could buy a home, so they were neither recipients or beneficiaries of "generational wealth transfer." Despite that, my father was admitted to a prestigious program, no-tuition, and turned his life around. (I believe the program still exists in some form today, although I think it is called the McCauley program of CUNY. It is very competitive.)

After your father turned his life around by gaining access to an elite education, did he experience hostility and the threat of violence from neighbors who didn't want him moving in to their high class neighborhood? White DP here and I'm trying to imagine what that does to a person's psyche.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

DP. I think everything you're saying about Jews is great, but the idea that black people don't value family or education is offensive. You can be forgiven for not knowing all the factors that have always made this a challenge for black people, but not for holding up stereotypes and assumptions as fact.

This is the kind of thing that always stops a good argument in its tracks. Because it proves how easy it is for believe the black candidate in front of you came from a broken home, doesn't have parents that value education, that their presence will bring values and standards down, etc.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but if your argument keeps running into that little racism speed bump, maybe shorten your learning loop and figure out why.

NP. Problems associated with the serious lack of fatherless households have been well documented since the 1960s.

Thank you. PP here who brought up the high OOW birthrate among blacks, and its correlation to poverty and crime, and was told that I injected a racist "speed bump" into the discussion.

That right there is the problem. It seems that any discussion about why blacks are not doing as well as whites (or as Jews, which seemed to be the discussion a few posts up), one is only permitted to discuss slavery and how reprehensibly blacks were treated, or other ways blacks have been horribly mistreated. (I agree that they were, of course....what decent person would think otherwise?) But as soon one brings up behavior that blacks have some control over, and which is exacerbating the problem, one is accused of racism, or putting up a racist speed bump.

As far as my remarks about blacks not valuing intact families as much as whites, I'm basing that on the fact that only one black child in four is born into an intact family. That is setting in motion an entire litany of problems, as that will lead to poverty, which leads to lack of educational opportunity, which leads to crime. It's factual.

Finally, the kick-off for that post was why Jews have been better able to push back against antisemitism, and my response was that it had a lot to do with intact families (where the parents are married before their children are born). This one factor enables a better financial cushion, which leads to better education, which leads to success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

DP, but assuming they weren't black, your grandparents likely had better job opportunities and were allowed to live in nice neighborhoods where the property values kept going up and the schools were nice.

My AA parents went to college, got nice middle class jobs, and when they moved into a nice neighborhood they slept nervously every night, waiting for a cross to be burned on their lawn or molotov cocktails to be thrown through the windows. They'd lived in a pretty nice house on the black side of town but had to wait until federal housing law allowed them to move into nice new developments. Still, people found ways to let our family know they didn't appreciate us being there.

And none of this discussion addresses the fact that the mishmash of state and local education policy in this country still means that where you live pretty much decides social mobility. If you're poor, you can work hard and be a little less poor. But getting into the middle class is a steep uphill climb; more are sliding down than climbing up.

But we seem to be just fine with that state of affairs.

First, it's awful that you parents had to sleep nervously at night, for no other reason than they were black, fearing cross-burning and Molotov cocktails. It's reprehensible.

That said, however, you've made the same false assumption about whites having it easy. Contrary to your belief, my grandparents did not have any good job opportunities, nor the opportunity to move into a nice neighborhood and gain from rising property values. They arrived in this country penniless, and uneducated, and lived in a hot, 2-room NYC walk-up that consisted of a kitchen and a bedroom - think of the old Honeymooners with Jackie Gleason - where they shared the bathroom with the adjacent apartment. My grandmother was a seamstress (manual sewing machine), and my grandfather worked in a machinist factory. They eked out a living, but never to the point that they could buy a home, so they were neither recipients or beneficiaries of "generational wealth transfer." Despite that, my father was admitted to a prestigious program, no-tuition, and turned his life around. (I believe the program still exists in some form today, although I think it is called the McCauley program of CUNY. It is very competitive.)

After your father turned his life around by gaining access to an elite education, did he experience hostility and the threat of violence from neighbors who didn't want him moving in to their high class neighborhood? White DP here and I'm trying to imagine what that does to a person's psyche.

Yes. When I was 12, we moved out of our neighborhood because of the rampant antisemitism there. I was teased, things were stolen, the word "Jew" was keyed into the new czr my dad had bought a few days later, and so forth.

[Anonymous]

So far via just video evidence that the only ones complaining about whites being at school are the poc sons and daughters of multimillionaires
who do have a background in privilege upbringing living in high class societies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most in U.S. Oppose Colleges Considering Race in Admissions

http://www.gallup.com/poll/193508/oppose-colleges-considering-race-admissions.aspx

Fascinating. A greater percentage of blacks think race should not be a factor than do.

Why is that fascinating?