Trump DOJ to prosecute universities for anti-white affirmative action policies

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not even white and I agree with this policy. There is no reason to discriminate against a qualified white student

I'm white, and I was once the target of a clear-cut, non-school, race-based barrier. (A professional group rep called me up to offer me special help with finding a job, then backed awkwardly away when she found out I was white.)

White people desperately need for affirmative action to exist. I went to an all white grade school and was in mostly white middle school and high school classes, and that's really crippling. I'm physically racist. I can try to pretend to myself that I'm not, but I'm always a little weirder with African American people, even when they're friends who went to better schools than I did, have better taste than I do, and have more money.

And schools discriminate based on all sorts of other absurd criteria all the time. People get in to schools because they can play basketball, or the oboe, or they live in Alaska. Why not because they've flourished despite having to deal with the legacy of racism?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

DP. I think everything you're saying about Jews is great, but the idea that black people don't value family or education is offensive. You can be forgiven for not knowing all the factors that have always made this a challenge for black people, but not for holding up stereotypes and assumptions as fact.

This is the kind of thing that always stops a good argument in its tracks. Because it proves how easy it is for believe the black candidate in front of you came from a broken home, doesn't have parents that value education, that their presence will bring values and standards down, etc.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but if your argument keeps running into that little racism speed bump, maybe shorten your learning loop and figure out why.

NP. Problems associated with the serious lack of fatherless households have been well documented since the 1960s.

Thank you. PP here who brought up the high OOW birthrate among blacks, and its correlation to poverty and crime, and was told that I injected a racist "speed bump" into the discussion.

That right there is the problem. It seems that any discussion about why blacks are not doing as well as whites (or as Jews, which seemed to be the discussion a few posts up), one is only permitted to discuss slavery and how reprehensibly blacks were treated, or other ways blacks have been horribly mistreated. (I agree that they were, of course....what decent person would think otherwise?) But as soon one brings up behavior that blacks have some control over, and which is exacerbating the problem, one is accused of racism, or putting up a racist speed bump.

As far as my remarks about blacks not valuing intact families as much as whites, I'm basing that on the fact that only one black child in four is born into an intact family. That is setting in motion an entire litany of problems, as that will lead to poverty, which leads to lack of educational opportunity, which leads to crime. It's factual.

Finally, the kick-off for that post was why Jews have been better able to push back against antisemitism, and my response was that it had a lot to do with intact families (where the parents are married before their children are born). This one factor enables a better financial cushion, which leads to better education, which leads to success.

I guess you missed where I posted upthread that 40 percent of all US births are to unwed mothers. So it looks like that's a cultural value that's somewhat shared.

Dig a little deeper and the data suggest that college graduates are more likely to get married, accumulate wealth, and pass the benefit on to their children. So you're right about that.

Where you're wrong is assuming that higher rate of out of wedlock births assumes lesser values and lesser intelligence. It simply means fewer resources, fewer paths to success, fewer examples in daily life of how success is achieved.

I'm arguing that more people - regardless of race - need more access to the education that leads to better outcomes. You're arguing that black people are simply lesser than, which supports the the idea that they need extra consideration to gain that access.

If a black kid does everything right and sits in front of you for an interview, what are you thinking about him? That he worked hard and did everything right, or that he comes from a fatherless household, was given a pass on his grades, etc?

That there are too many kids of any background with those factors in their life story is a disgrace. That we still have intelligent people arguing it's the standard for black people supports continuing race-based consideration for admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If a black kid does everything right and sits in front of you for an interview, what are you thinking about him? That he worked hard and did everything right, or that he comes from a fatherless household, was given a pass on his grades, etc?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

The effects of the Great Recession were disproportionately felt by black people. MC/UMC black people and black neighborhoods lost a huge amount of wealth which has still not recovered even as white Americans have. The playing field was not level decades ago and is not level today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a black kid does everything right and sits in front of you for an interview, what are you thinking about him? That he worked hard and did everything right, or that he comes from a fatherless household, was given a pass on his grades, etc?

Given a pass on his grades is real

Talk to people of color and the issue is real. They are constantly being looked at; are you here because you are just as good or because you are a POC

You fix this by ending affirmative action. The majority of POC support it like the survey said

[Anonymous]

"When people are used to preferential treatment, equal treatment seems like discrimination."

Thomas Sowell

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And 70 years later the Jewish administration at the elites favors Jewish students by a huge amount. So the behavior now is no better than the 1950's only it is hidden under the statistics of "white admit rate". 2/3 of white admission goes unfairly to Jewish students that make up 2% of the population yet are 1/3 of the class at the elites. Non Jewish white students with equal test scores and gpas don't stand a chance against this ethnic bias. The difference now is if anyone takes a stand against unbalanced admission practice the admissions just deflects by calling people anti Semitic which is just BS.

You seriously believe that Jewish kids are over-represented in elite universities because there is bias in their favor? I mean, what reality do you live in? Please show me data that suggests that Jewish kids are underperforming, or even comparably performing, the rest of the white applicant pool. I would be a lot of money that Jewish kids have higher stats than the broader white applicant pool.

Jewish kids, who are identified as white applicants, are over-represented because Jewish-Americans tend to be wealthier and place a higher value on education. Also, I think a bunch of other social factors support Jewish families (low divorce rates, strong sense of community and willingness to help each other out, multi-generational family support, etc). *All* of these things are predictive of strong academic success, and will make them stand out in college application pools. They are simply the group of white Americans that outperform the rest of the high SES white Americans.

So you seem to be arguing for quotas on Jews, or AA for non-Jewish whites compared to Jewish whites.

http://www.unz.com/runz/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

Read this article - which has been supported by tyler cowen and steve hsu as well.

Jews are massively overrepresented compared to asians but the former have no quotas (rightly so) whereas the latter do.

[Anonymous]

Even Andrew Gelman, a skeptic of Ron Unz, writes:

http://andrewgelman.com/2013/02/12/that-claim-that-harvard-admissions-discriminate-in-favor-of-jews-after-checking-the-statistics-maybe-not/

"This post is long because, if we’re adjudicating claims based on statistics, details matter. The short story, though, is that Unz appears to be (a) overestimating the number of Jews at Harvard, and (b) underestimating the proportion of Jews among the set of high-achieving potential Harvard applicants. Put this together and I don’t see the evidence that Jews receive preferential admissions compared to other whites. (Again, Asians is another story, not the topic of the present post.)"

[Anonymous]

A black man simply walking down the street is presumed to be a dangerous criminal.
A black man simply furthering his education is presumed to be an unqualified charity case.



The dominant narrative of blacks in this country is that they are guilty until proven innocent.

[Anonymous]

quit hating on police and end affirmative action

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:quit hating on police and end affirmative action

sorry quit committing crimes is a better analogy for the first part

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A black man simply walking down the street is presumed to be a dangerous criminal.
A black man simply furthering his education is presumed to be an unqualified charity case.



The dominant narrative of blacks in this country is that they are guilty until proven innocent.

That's definitely a strong argument for ending AA.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Love the PP who mentioned "generational wealth". My dad stood in a bread line during the Great Depression. Look at all the immigrants who have come with nothing.

Came from nothing but had nothing taken away from them. Don't compare a select group who immigrated away from their poverty to people climbing out of it. I don't know what being in a Great Depression which is an economic issue for a decade has to do with centuries of Slavery and Jim Crow. Horrible analogy. Especially since blacks had to deal with a Great Depression as well as Jim Crow Laws.

DP, but I think the point the first PP was making was in response to another poster who said blacks hadn't had the opportunity whites had to build "generational wealth" - as if all whites have been here for multiple generations building and passing on wealth. My grandparents arrived here penniless, as teenagers, and in ONE generation, my parents were middle class as young adults, and upper-middle class by their 40s.

Surely you understand the difference between your grandparents (who likely arrived here in the '40s or '50s) and the opportunities they had compared to the average black person's grandparents and the opportunities they were shut out from until the late '60s and '70s? I grew up in the Midwest (Michigan, so not a former slave state), and there was a country club near me that didn't integrate until the '90s. Until then black members were openly excluded. Now ask yourself why your grandparents and parents might have had a somewhat easier time amassing resources than a black American might have had.

Interesting you bring up the country club example. We lived near a country club that openly excluded Jews, although we were "permitted" on the premises as guests for specific events (like if there was a wedding).

As far as my grandparents, you've guessed me for too young, My grandparents were teens in the late 20s, having escaped horrors that befell their European families just a few years later, and faced a lot of antisemitism here at home. People didn't want to hire Jews, and by the time my father was ready for college in the 1950s, he faced terrible discrimination. Even so, they moved from poverty to UMC in the span of a single generation.

I brought this up to negate the poster (maybe it's you) who seemed to be under the impression that whites have been in this country, amassing "generational wealth" since the 1700s. Most people can trace their ancestry to someone who came in at Ellis Island, which opened around 1900.

I'm not the poster who thinks white Americans have been here for centuries. I am a poster who has defended the Jewish community as being deserving of over-representation in elite universities based on some obvious community and cultural advantages (full disclosure: my childhood BFF is Jewish, and my view of the broader Jewish-American community may be colored by her specific Jewish community). My observation is that Jews continue to face anti-Semitism in America today, but their experience is different for two reasons: 1) they were able to successfully push back sooner on institutionalized racism than black Americans have been, so their exclusion from things like education has been less absolute (though there were certainly country clubs near me that also did not allow Jews), and 2) the sense of community is much stronger among Jewish-Americans, which I've seen be incredibly helpful to their success. I'm Indian-American, and I believe that a sense of community among Indian-Americans also helps propel our success. I've seen the argument that it's black-American's fault that they don't have the same sense of community, but I disagree. The US has centuries of history that includes actively destroying black families, and the way policing has changed in the last few decades is the most recent incarnation of this.

PP here. Thank you for defending Jews against the charge that we are over-represented in elite universities. I do appreciate that.

Explandimg on your two points, it's true that Jews have been better able to push back against bigotry than blacks, but you might be surprised by how rampant antisemitism was. As a child in the 70s, I recall the housing developer proudly telling my father that "thus far, we've been able to hold the Jewish families down to five."

You mentioned the strong sense of community among Jews, but I would like to emphasis the strong sense of family, as well. There is a great commitment to intact families, and this not only provides security by which to "push back" against antisemitism, but it also provides a strong(er) financial foundation. I have mentioned before that IMO the high out-of-wedlock birthrate among blacks compounds systemic racism, as it leads to more poverty, which leads to more crime. (I have been accused of racism when I touch upon this, but statistics bear out a strong correlation between single mothers and poverty.) While the history involving blacks, and ripping apart of families, is reprehensible, there still is much within their control to establish intact families.

Another reason for Jewish success (speaking generally) is a very strong value on education, which of course can turn one's fortunes (or lack thereof) around in a single generation. This particular value predates the time of Jesus, and in fact, once writing was developed, it was actually forbidden to keep children illiterate. The religion required that children be taught to read. Girls, too.

So, strong family connections and a very high value on education has gone far to help Jews overcome a long history of persecution, and antisemtism that continues to this day.

DP. I think everything you're saying about Jews is great, but the idea that black people don't value family or education is offensive. You can be forgiven for not knowing all the factors that have always made this a challenge for black people, but not for holding up stereotypes and assumptions as fact.

This is the kind of thing that always stops a good argument in its tracks. Because it proves how easy it is for believe the black candidate in front of you came from a broken home, doesn't have parents that value education, that their presence will bring values and standards down, etc.

I'm not accusing you of racism, but if your argument keeps running into that little racism speed bump, maybe shorten your learning loop and figure out why.

NP. Problems associated with the serious lack of fatherless households have been well documented since the 1960s.

Thank you. PP here who brought up the high OOW birthrate among blacks, and its correlation to poverty and crime, and was told that I injected a racist "speed bump" into the discussion.

That right there is the problem. It seems that any discussion about why blacks are not doing as well as whites (or as Jews, which seemed to be the discussion a few posts up), one is only permitted to discuss slavery and how reprehensibly blacks were treated, or other ways blacks have been horribly mistreated. (I agree that they were, of course....what decent person would think otherwise?) But as soon one brings up behavior that blacks have some control over, and which is exacerbating the problem, one is accused of racism, or putting up a racist speed bump.

As far as my remarks about blacks not valuing intact families as much as whites, I'm basing that on the fact that only one black child in four is born into an intact family. That is setting in motion an entire litany of problems, as that will lead to poverty, which leads to lack of educational opportunity, which leads to crime. It's factual.

Finally, the kick-off for that post was why Jews have been better able to push back against antisemitism, and my response was that it had a lot to do with intact families (where the parents are married before their children are born). This one factor enables a better financial cushion, which leads to better education, which leads to success.

The problem has been identified for decades. The inability of Administrations to bring about positive change is sad.

[Anonymous]

I assume everyone who is against affirmative action is also in favor of sex-blind admission too, right?

Because I hate to break it to you, white boys, but you're getting an "unfair" advantage in admissions as well, and lots of qualified young ladies aren't accepted to make room for your mediocre selves:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/30/achieving-perfect-gender-balance-on-campus-isnt-that-important-ending-private-colleges-affirmative-action-for-men-is/?utm_term=.26ad36b387f4

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-affirmative-action-investigation-trump-20170802-story.html

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/17/8050259/discrimination-against-women-is-a-real-problem-in-college-admissions