Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

I haven't read all 20 pages... has this been posted yet?

Midwife faces involuntary manslaughter charges

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-faces-involuntary-manslaughter-charges/2011/04/18/AFTsqs1D_story.html

[Anonymous]

Sorry I meant doula not souls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:19 here.

Sure. Our Bradley instructor told us that the nurses would be hostile and treat us with contempt. That our baby would be taken from us immediately after birth and not returned for hours. That you couldn’t walk around or eat and drink during labor. That they’d try to wash your vagina out with soap (yes, she actually said that) and shave your pubic hair. That you’d have to have an epidural and immediately be hooked up to an IV and a catheter. None of that happened. The OB okayed eating and drinking and walking around so I did. I walked into the OR and had a spinal and rolled out with my baby on my chest. I’m sure there’s more, but the gist of it was that hospitals and c-sections were to be avoided at all costs.

Your Bradley instructor sounds a lot like the one who was the souls at this birth.

Ha - all Bradley instructors sound they same (and I took Bradley and delivered at home!!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:19 here.

Sure. Our Bradley instructor told us that the nurses would be hostile and treat us with contempt. That our baby would be taken from us immediately after birth and not returned for hours. That you couldn’t walk around or eat and drink during labor. That they’d try to wash your vagina out with soap (yes, she actually said that) and shave your pubic hair. That you’d have to have an epidural and immediately be hooked up to an IV and a catheter. None of that happened. The OB okayed eating and drinking and walking around so I did. I walked into the OR and had a spinal and rolled out with my baby on my chest. I’m sure there’s more, but the gist of it was that hospitals and c-sections were to be avoided at all costs.

Thanks. Makes me kind of glad I never took a Bradley class. Are they all like that?

My homebirth CPM was great. She had nothing but respect for OBs and hospitals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:19 here.

Sure. Our Bradley instructor told us that the nurses would be hostile and treat us with contempt. That our baby would be taken from us immediately after birth and not returned for hours. That you couldn’t walk around or eat and drink during labor. That they’d try to wash your vagina out with soap (yes, she actually said that) and shave your pubic hair. That you’d have to have an epidural and immediately be hooked up to an IV and a catheter. None of that happened. The OB okayed eating and drinking and walking around so I did. I walked into the OR and had a spinal and rolled out with my baby on my chest. I’m sure there’s more, but the gist of it was that hospitals and c-sections were to be avoided at all costs.

Wow - this is totally different from what my Bradley instructor taught us! I got the picture that some of these things *can* happen at hospitals, but don't have to necessarily. And shaving/washing w/soap? WTH?

I think this is probably why so many people are leery of Bradley.

[Anonymous]

I don't think all Bradley teachers are created equally. I think there are a few that tend to teach to the extremes of things and others that seem to be more diplomatic...at least that was my experience. I had a great Bradley teacher who gave me the benefits and risks of procedures and was very matter of fact. If I had a question she would find valid research to back it up and overall, I felt no judgement from her when my birth had twists and turns and I was relaying it back to her. I think there are some, from what I've read in the past, that are more radical and intense in their teachings.

[Anonymous]

taken from the washington post comments:

homeschool4joy
Without all the facts, it is impossible to pass judgment on the actions of the birth attendants. However, the severity of the charges is breathtaking. When I think of the various ways my first six births were mishandled in six different hospitals, compared to the expertise I experienced with my brilliant homebirth midwives for my last two babies, I can imagine many possible motivations for the poor institutional care: laziness, ignorance, ineptitude, callousness, prejudice, impatience, etc. And their mistakes could have led to negative outcomes for me and my babies. But despite my frustration with the substandard and even negligent care, I never imagined malice as the motivation for mistakes in judgment and poor care.

The fact that prosecutors saw fit to bring CRIMINAL charges against a devoted, experienced midwife is incomprehensible. What if other birth attendants were treated with the same severity?

If so, then the doctor who administered the wrong dosage of Pitocin to my mother, which resulted in extreme contractions and a precipitous delivery with a prolapsed cord, should have been charged with attempted murder. And the doctor who placed a large amount of Cytotec on my mother's cervix at a different delivery should face drug charges, because Cytotec is specifically precluded from use as a labor stimulant. And the internist who tried to break my bag of waters but missed, thereby lacerating my cervix while I was in transition, should be charged with assault. And the doctor who cut through a friend's uterus during a scheduled csection and slashed her bowels and bladder, while introducing a hospital-grade strain of staph, should be charged with maiming and involuntary manslaughter.

Does the medical establishment really want to encourage CRIMINAL liability for poor outcomes? Please keep your self-righteousness in check. Obstetrical care in America could be exposed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:19 here.

Sure. Our Bradley instructor told us that the nurses would be hostile and treat us with contempt. That our baby would be taken from us immediately after birth and not returned for hours. That you couldn’t walk around or eat and drink during labor. That they’d try to wash your vagina out with soap (yes, she actually said that) and shave your pubic hair.

Sometimes they will squirt baby soap or hand soap in your vagina as lube as the baby's head crowns. Haven't seen shaving in a long time. They do shave some of your pubes for a c-section if there's hair in the way there.

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter whether or not OBs want criminal liability. The reality is that it is the prosecutor's discretion whether to proceed with criminal charges.

As has been said time and again -- how else do you restrain someone who is repeatedly illegally practicing medicine in your state and is (in all likelihood) judgement proof (due to having limited assets and being uninsured).

[Anonymous]

I had my first baby in a birth center with midwives. I chose the out of hospital birth setting because studies have shown that even midwives in hospital settings use more interventions and have higher c-section rates than midwives attending home and birthcenter births. I am pretty sure I would have gotten several interventions had I given birth in the hospital because my birth was not easy and I pushed for a very long time. In hospitals both doctors and midwives are much more likely to use interventions rather than allow women to push as long as I did. This is because hospitals allow limited time for the stages of labor before intervention is required. I was able to have the birth I wanted and I am grateful for that.

I also have two children whom I adopted at birth and I was present at both hospital births. It was pretty horrific to see how many things were done to the women and the babies without explanation or consent. The nurses and doctors just did things to them, often without even saying what they were going to do. I was traumatized just watching these sweet young women give birth and both of them chose to give birth with minimal medication, no epidurals. I am sure that some hospital births are not
like the ones that I witnessed but I think the birthcenter should be given some credit for trying to teach women about some of the things that might happen in the hospital and also for offering a safe alternative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had my first baby in a birth center with midwives. I chose the out of hospital birth setting because studies have shown that even midwives in hospital settings use more interventions and have higher c-section rates than midwives attending home and birthcenter births. I am pretty sure I would have gotten several interventions had I given birth in the hospital because my birth was not easy and I pushed for a very long time. In hospitals both doctors and midwives are much more likely to use interventions rather than allow women to push as long as I did. This is because hospitals allow limited time for the stages of labor before intervention is required. I was able to have the birth I wanted and I am grateful for that.

I also have two children whom I adopted at birth and I was present at both hospital births. It was pretty horrific to see how many things were done to the women and the babies without explanation or consent. The nurses and doctors just did things to them, often without even saying what they were going to do. I was traumatized just watching these sweet young women give birth and both of them chose to give birth with minimal medication, no epidurals. I am sure that some hospital births are not
like the ones that I witnessed but I think the birthcenter should be given some credit for trying to teach women about some of the things that might happen in the hospital and also for offering a safe alternative.

I am the pp who birthed on all fours (at Georgetown). I pushed for over 5 hours and that is how I ended up in that position. There was no time limit believe me. Where did you get the idea there was one?

[Anonymous]

I had unmedicated vaginal births at a hospital and at home. The hospital was fine, the nurses were nice and nothing weird happened, but I was really glad I had my doula with me to, for example, continuously tell the nurses that I wanted my baby to stay with me and that no, I really didn't want an epidural and that yes, I would be fine walking around and that no, I did t want my baby to have the hep-b shot right then. I was always in the back of my mind aware that I needed to be sure that my wishes were being adhered to. I was also uncomfortable. My husband wasn't allowed to stay overnight with me and the baby bc we were in a shared room, the food was gross, the bed was uncomfortable. I wanted to go home.

At home, everything was wonderful and comfortable and I was much more able to relax.

This comment is not saying anything about the Carr situation and I recognize that all the things I've said are about my own personal comfort, which most would argue takes second to a healthy baby.

But just to say that no, being in a hospital isn't always a total nightmare, but even when it's relatively a good experience, for me, it was much much better to be home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had my first baby in a birth center with midwives. I chose the out of hospital birth setting because studies have shown that even midwives in hospital settings use more interventions and have higher c-section rates than midwives attending home and birthcenter births. I am pretty sure I would have gotten several interventions had I given birth in the hospital because my birth was not easy and I pushed for a very long time. In hospitals both doctors and midwives are much more likely to use interventions rather than allow women to push as long as I did. This is because hospitals allow limited time for the stages of labor before intervention is required. I was able to have the birth I wanted and I am grateful for that.

I also have two children whom I adopted at birth and I was present at both hospital births. It was pretty horrific to see how many things were done to the women and the babies without explanation or consent. The nurses and doctors just did things to them, often without even saying what they were going to do. I was traumatized just watching these sweet young women give birth and both of them chose to give birth with minimal medication, no epidurals. I am sure that some hospital births are not
like the ones that I witnessed but I think the birthcenter should be given some credit for trying to teach women about some of the things that might happen in the hospital and also for offering a safe alternative.

I am the pp who birthed on all fours (at Georgetown). I pushed for over 5 hours and that is how I ended up in that position. There was no time limit believe me. Where did you get the idea there was one?

I'm sure it's not always the case. And like I said, I'm sure some hospital births are great. But it's important to be aware that some hospitals do have these policies and some hospital staff will treat you as though you belong to the hospital and they can do whatever they want to you. I have seen it firsthand. I got the idea that there were time limits from reading studies comparing hospital births to home and birthcenter births. I also witnessed two births in two different hospitals where time limits were imposed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had my first baby in a birth center with midwives. I chose the out of hospital birth setting because studies have shown that even midwives in hospital settings use more interventions and have higher c-section rates than midwives attending home and birthcenter births. I am pretty sure I would have gotten several interventions had I given birth in the hospital because my birth was not easy and I pushed for a very long time. In hospitals both doctors and midwives are much more likely to use interventions rather than allow women to push as long as I did. This is because hospitals allow limited time for the stages of labor before intervention is required. I was able to have the birth I wanted and I am grateful for that.

I also have two children whom I adopted at birth and I was present at both hospital births. It was pretty horrific to see how many things were done to the women and the babies without explanation or consent. The nurses and doctors just did things to them, often without even saying what they were going to do. I was traumatized just watching these sweet young women give birth and both of them chose to give birth with minimal medication, no epidurals. I am sure that some hospital births are not
like the ones that I witnessed but I think the birthcenter should be given some credit for trying to teach women about some of the things that might happen in the hospital and also for offering a safe alternative.

I am the pp who birthed on all fours (at Georgetown). I pushed for over 5 hours and that is how I ended up in that position. There was no time limit believe me. Where did you get the idea there was one?

NP here. I also delivered at Georgetown and felt there was a definite 3 hour time limit for pushing. Maybe it depends on who is attending? After 3 hours of making slow but steady progress, they started heavily pushing a c-section. The residents and the nurses kept repeating "you've been pushing for 3 hours!!" It was really discouraging.

[Anonymous]

Go on over to the washington post. it is a very different vibe there.

brbr_kent
All living carries risk. We want somebody to blame for outcomes that are tragic; sometimes there is nobody to blame. I do not know all the facts of this particular case but I do know the reputation of Karen Carr and I have seen her in action at a birth. Her dedication to informed choice is amazing, and it makes her a radical when it comes to modern medicine: Not because she is anti-technology or medicine or intervention (which of course she isn't) BUT because she supports the radical idea that human beings ought to have the freedom and support to understand their options and make their own decisions with their own bodies.