Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

And...there it is. You're a loon. We can all see very well what has and is happening. We've seen the dead babies, the starving children. They are TARGETING civilians. It's Israel that fails to distinguish between the two. Either you know that, and you're a liar, or you're fully brainwashed and talking to you is a waste of breath.

I am not disputing that all of that is absolutely tragic. War is extremely ugly. Innocents always suffer, including innocent children. That doesn’t make it a genocide though. I haven’t seen any credible reports that definitively establish that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. It is CERTAINLY not their stated goal.

Let me ask you, though - if you believe Israel is committing genocide because it intentionally targets civilians, do you also believe October 7 was genocide? Why or why not?

No, I don’t. Scale, for one. Effectiveness, for another. A one day attack, albeit with hostages, compared to a sustained multi-year campaign with tens of thousands of civilian deaths, with leaders of this campaign saying it will not stop until this nebulous goal of eradicating Hamas (which they make no effort to distinguish from civilian Palestinian citizens) is achieved. Acting like they are remotely the same is why people with your viewpoint are not to be taken seriously.

If what's happening in Palestine doesn't qualify as a genocide, what would qualify as a genocide? Many experts who study genocide have in fact said it does meet the definition. Why do you continue to deny it?

Rwanda.
Nazi Germany.

Genocide does not usually involve give the victims the ability to stop the genocide by surrendering.

We killed 10% of all Germans during WWII, was that a genocide? Of course not because we were at war and the Germans could stop it at any time by surrendering.
Are there war crimes being committed? Almost certainly. Every war has war crimes. There are plenty of war crimes to go around in this war.
Seriously, for every war crime you can name for the IDF, I can name a war crime for Hamas.
Beither side is playing it clean but Hamas started this.

War does not target civilians. They cannot surrender for Hamas anymore than I can prevent Trump from behaving recklessly. You're sick and I hope you burn.

People like you have hated people like me for thousands of years.
You only have sympathy for the people that started this war is because they are losing horribly.
They can surrender at any time. But instead of heaping scorn on hamas for starting all of this or pushing for hamas to surrender so all of this can stop, you insist that we either lose or quit.
This war will end when the Hamas leadership has surrendered, been tried and executed.

DP

Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.

Bigots like you justify their bigotry in all sorts of ways.
It's nothing new or novel.

We didn't invade anyone in 1948.

I commented on your actual posts. You are clearly a raging bigot. On the other hand, you have zero basis upon which to falsely label me a bigot. But go on, I guess, with the only tactic you’ve mastered, attacking others (at the expense of self-reflection, apparently).

To recap, these were your exact words:

“Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.”

I don’t think there’s really any way to read this other than “Jews think they’re better than everyone and can’t get along with anyone which is why they’ve been persecuted for thousands of years.” Except you used even more extreme language. Like, what else could you possibly mean by “some people have hated people like you for thousands of years”?

Do you not think the above is an antisemitic statement? Genuinely, I’d like to know.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

Much of it was uninhabited until the Jews came along.

You hopefully are being sarcastic? But this was how it was taught to me 49 years ago. Part of the anger at Israel comes from realizing all the lies. Put aside the 2 state solution - maybe just start with acknowledging the truth and apologizing?

[Anonymous]

Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

[Anonymous]

So basically it’s none of nonJews business and if we don’t agree 100% with a Zionist we are antisemitic, correct?

[Anonymous]

Someone can call anyone else from any background a bigot but referring to a zionist as a bigot is most probably antisemitism?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

Much of it was uninhabited until the Jews came along.

You hopefully are being sarcastic? But this was how it was taught to me 49 years ago. Part of the anger at Israel comes from realizing all the lies. Put aside the 2 state solution - maybe just start with acknowledging the truth and apologizing?

Here is a very detailed breakdown from neither the Israeli nor Palestinian perspective, complete with lots of detailed maps which I think you’ll find support that statement: https://unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com/p/who-can-claim-palestine

“The population was pretty small at the time, as this region was neither contested nor important strategically, and its economy had suffered in the previous centuries.”
Again, the entire landmass only had about 1.3 million people in 1935 (Jews and Arabs combined). Compare that to 15 million today.

No one is saying it was totally empty. Just that a lot of the land the Jews settled in was previously uncultivated - sand dunes, swamps, etc. This is a pretty easily verifiable fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

And...there it is. You're a loon. We can all see very well what has and is happening. We've seen the dead babies, the starving children. They are TARGETING civilians. It's Israel that fails to distinguish between the two. Either you know that, and you're a liar, or you're fully brainwashed and talking to you is a waste of breath.

I am not disputing that all of that is absolutely tragic. War is extremely ugly. Innocents always suffer, including innocent children. That doesn’t make it a genocide though. I haven’t seen any credible reports that definitively establish that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. It is CERTAINLY not their stated goal.

Let me ask you, though - if you believe Israel is committing genocide because it intentionally targets civilians, do you also believe October 7 was genocide? Why or why not?

No, I don’t. Scale, for one. Effectiveness, for another. A one day attack, albeit with hostages, compared to a sustained multi-year campaign with tens of thousands of civilian deaths, with leaders of this campaign saying it will not stop until this nebulous goal of eradicating Hamas (which they make no effort to distinguish from civilian Palestinian citizens) is achieved. Acting like they are remotely the same is why people with your viewpoint are not to be taken seriously.

If what's happening in Palestine doesn't qualify as a genocide, what would qualify as a genocide? Many experts who study genocide have in fact said it does meet the definition. Why do you continue to deny it?

Rwanda.
Nazi Germany.

Genocide does not usually involve give the victims the ability to stop the genocide by surrendering.

We killed 10% of all Germans during WWII, was that a genocide? Of course not because we were at war and the Germans could stop it at any time by surrendering.
Are there war crimes being committed? Almost certainly. Every war has war crimes. There are plenty of war crimes to go around in this war.
Seriously, for every war crime you can name for the IDF, I can name a war crime for Hamas.
Beither side is playing it clean but Hamas started this.

War does not target civilians. They cannot surrender for Hamas anymore than I can prevent Trump from behaving recklessly. You're sick and I hope you burn.

People like you have hated people like me for thousands of years.
You only have sympathy for the people that started this war is because they are losing horribly.
They can surrender at any time. But instead of heaping scorn on hamas for starting all of this or pushing for hamas to surrender so all of this can stop, you insist that we either lose or quit.
This war will end when the Hamas leadership has surrendered, been tried and executed.

DP

Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.

Bigots like you justify their bigotry in all sorts of ways.
It's nothing new or novel.

We didn't invade anyone in 1948.

I commented on your actual posts. You are clearly a raging bigot. On the other hand, you have zero basis upon which to falsely label me a bigot. But go on, I guess, with the only tactic you’ve mastered, attacking others (at the expense of self-reflection, apparently).

To recap, these were your exact words:

“Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.”

I don’t think there’s really any way to read this other than “Jews think they’re better than everyone and can’t get along with anyone which is why they’ve been persecuted for thousands of years.” Except you used even more extreme language. Like, what else could you possibly mean by “some people have hated people like you for thousands of years”?

Do you not think the above is an antisemitic statement? Genuinely, I’d like to know.

Thanks for fighting the good fight PP. Astonishingly I think that many people in fact do not think that the above statements are antisemitic, even educated and otherwise “woke” people. They think it is something like saying “Black people dominate professional sports” - maybe a slightly naughty stereotype they know is not totally aligned with the way they are “supposed to” talk about minorities, but true nonetheless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Are you approaching random American Jews and inquiring as to their views on “their country”? Yikes lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Are you approaching random American Jews and inquiring as to their views on “their country”? Yikes lol

They consider Israel their homeland and have made this clear. Israel is as much their home as the US and share this with others. Is that wrong to refer to it as their country? Should I frame it as their ‘other country’ ‘their homeland’ which is acceptable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Are you approaching random American Jews and inquiring as to their views on “their country”? Yikes lol

Why Yikes? That’s a bit of an overreaction no? Yikes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Give it up lady. Your local synagogue does not have a wanted poster for your 8 year old. Also “Jewish Americans” are … US citizens. Israel is not “their country.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Are you approaching random American Jews and inquiring as to their views on “their country”? Yikes lol

They consider Israel their homeland and have made this clear. Israel is as much their home as the US and share this with others. Is that wrong to refer to it as their country? Should I frame it as their ‘other country’ ‘their homeland’ which is acceptable?

For someone who claims to be “just asking” and not have much stake in the matter, you sure do seem to be awfully persistent about this. Who exactly are all of these Jewish friends of yours and can you explain more the actual context of these discussions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Answer the question does antizionism equal antisemitism. I don’t care if there are American jews in the marines etc. no kidding. My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being both and will not really engage with any nonjew who questions anything, they shutdown the convo immediately. This seems a little narrow minded and frankly unfair. That is why I am on this forum as I am terrified to even broach the topic with any American acquaintances who are Jewish.

Did you read the OP? That’s the entire topic of this thread. If by antizionism you mean criticism of the Israeli government then no, it’s not antisemitic on its own (but could be motivated by antisemitism). If by antizionism you mean thinking the state of Israel should be dismantled then yeah, that’s very probably antisemitic.

“My Jewish friends believe these words are synonymous and have hastily branded anyone including children who state negative attitudes towards Israel as being [antisemitic]”
You keep hijacking threads to talk about this alleged bullying incident at your child’s school. I have a really hard time believing your kid was branded an antisemite simply for criticizing the Israeli government, but idk maybe. Kids are dumb and cruel sometimes. That doesn’t justify your insane persecution complex. You seem to think the Jews are out to get you and ruin your life if you so much as breathe a word about Israel and uhhh……look around you ma’am. Anti-Israel sentiment is incredibly pervasive. People don’t seem AT ALL afraid to be very very open about it.

Yes, unfortunately it is true my DC is seen by the jewish community as being antisemitic and the Jewish americans I am acquainted with are not open and engaging as far as any inquiries regarding their country. It’s very off putting.

Are you approaching random American Jews and inquiring as to their views on “their country”? Yikes lol

Why Yikes? That’s a bit of an overreaction no? Yikes?

DP. No. I’m not sure how you are failing to get that assuming all Jews are Israeli citizens or view Israel as their actual nation is offensive. In this case the “yikes” part is also specifically for this extremely clueless PP who persists in her innocent claims about all Jews being fakers.