Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

Much of it was uninhabited until the Jews came along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

What? The Balfour declaration did not establish the state of Israel. It expressed general British support for the idea of Zionism. The UN did not recognize Israel until 1949, after the Jews had already built up the state and fought a war over it. And your last sentence is a complete non-sequitur. As far as I know, a big part of Romani history/culture/tradition is living a nomadic lifestyle. They have never had serious nationalist aspirations or taken any steps to establish a state (again, as far as I know). If they had, maybe they could have also gotten buy-in from the British or recognition from the UN. Again, I have no idea and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

As you know - the reference to the Roma is an attempt to show that Jews are lying exaggerators who took advantage of the Holocaust to steal Palestine.

No it’s to show that the primary reason Europeans were allowed into Israel after WWII was because of religious beliefs.

DP
You've said this a few times now. Can you unpack this a little bit.
Was the Balfour declaration made for religious reasons?
Did the UN draw up the boundaries of Israel for religious reasons?
How does religion give them an easy glidepath to Israel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

What? The Balfour declaration did not establish the state of Israel. It expressed general British support for the idea of Zionism. The UN did not recognize Israel until 1949, after the Jews had already built up the state and fought a war over it. And your last sentence is a complete non-sequitur. As far as I know, a big part of Romani history/culture/tradition is living a nomadic lifestyle. They have never had serious nationalist aspirations or taken any steps to establish a state (again, as far as I know). If they had, maybe they could have also gotten buy-in from the British or recognition from the UN. Again, I have no idea and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

As you know - the reference to the Roma is an attempt to show that Jews are lying exaggerators who took advantage of the Holocaust to steal Palestine.

No it’s to show that the primary reason Europeans were allowed into Israel after WWII was because of religious beliefs.

DP
You've said this a few times now. Can you unpack this a little bit.
Was the Balfour declaration made for religious reasons?
Did the UN draw up the boundaries of Israel for religious reasons?
How does religion give them an easy glidepath to Israel?

Sorry but isn’t this like saying that the US should still belong to anyone anywhere with any Native American ancestry? How far should one go back in time? Because a modern person with 1/4 native ancestry is not really native, correct? Or am I insane? With Israelis and 2000+ years on diaspora, surely these aren’t all direct descendants of the ancient Jews? How about converts?

[Anonymous]

Tomato tomatoe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

First of all, I don’t know many American Jews that refer to Israel as their homeland. Second of all, among those that do - it is their figurative, RELIGIOUS homeland. Not their literal homeland. Otherwise they would be living there, not in America. It’s akin to Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca.

It is antisemitic to accuse American Jews, writ large, of harboring dual loyalties, which is exactly what you’re doing. It’s not like, a new brilliant idea you just thought of. It’s been around for generations:

“Simply referred to as the ‘dual loyalty’ charge, antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and vilify Jews”

No, I feel like the other’ in my circle of Jewish acquaintances. I am accepted and even sort of liked by them but never will be equal to them, or on the same level or network or whatever.

Ok my friend you need to step away from the keyboard. This is clearly about your own personal feelings of inadequacy borne out of your relationships with individual Jews. That doesn’t justify you accusing all American Jews of being disloyal citizens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

What? The Balfour declaration did not establish the state of Israel. It expressed general British support for the idea of Zionism. The UN did not recognize Israel until 1949, after the Jews had already built up the state and fought a war over it. And your last sentence is a complete non-sequitur. As far as I know, a big part of Romani history/culture/tradition is living a nomadic lifestyle. They have never had serious nationalist aspirations or taken any steps to establish a state (again, as far as I know). If they had, maybe they could have also gotten buy-in from the British or recognition from the UN. Again, I have no idea and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

As you know - the reference to the Roma is an attempt to show that Jews are lying exaggerators who took advantage of the Holocaust to steal Palestine.

No it’s to show that the primary reason Europeans were allowed into Israel after WWII was because of religious beliefs.

DP
You've said this a few times now. Can you unpack this a little bit.
Was the Balfour declaration made for religious reasons?
Did the UN draw up the boundaries of Israel for religious reasons?
How does religion give them an easy glidepath to Israel?

Sorry but isn’t this like saying that the US should still belong to anyone anywhere with any Native American ancestry? How far should one go back in time? Because a modern person with 1/4 native ancestry is not really native, correct? Or am I insane? With Israelis and 2000+ years on diaspora, surely these aren’t all direct descendants of the ancient Jews? How about converts?

Central and South Americans belong here more than any of us.

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Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

First of all, I don’t know many American Jews that refer to Israel as their homeland. Second of all, among those that do - it is their figurative, RELIGIOUS homeland. Not their literal homeland. Otherwise they would be living there, not in America. It’s akin to Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca.

It is antisemitic to accuse American Jews, writ large, of harboring dual loyalties, which is exactly what you’re doing. It’s not like, a new brilliant idea you just thought of. It’s been around for generations:

“Simply referred to as the ‘dual loyalty’ charge, antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and vilify Jews”

No, I feel like the other’ in my circle of Jewish acquaintances. I am accepted and even sort of liked by them but never will be equal to them, or on the same level or network or whatever.

Ok my friend you need to step away from the keyboard. This is clearly about your own personal feelings of inadequacy borne out of your relationships with individual Jews. That doesn’t justify you accusing all American Jews of being disloyal citizens.

Again it’s not only Jewish individuals but any American identifying more with another nation. It’s sad that the US is just a stepping stone for so many.

[Anonymous]

My genuine question for all the many posters who seem SUPER concerned about Israel being a specifically JEWISH state (setting aside the fact that it’s actually an open pluralistic society and 20% of its citizens are non-Jewish Arabs that enjoy full rights);

What do you imagine a Palestinian state would be? Secular humanist? Please be real. It would be an Islamic country just like the scores of other Islamic countries in the region that, by and large, have a horrific record when it comes to treatment of women, gay people, and non-Muslims.

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

And...there it is. You're a loon. We can all see very well what has and is happening. We've seen the dead babies, the starving children. They are TARGETING civilians. It's Israel that fails to distinguish between the two. Either you know that, and you're a liar, or you're fully brainwashed and talking to you is a waste of breath.

I am not disputing that all of that is absolutely tragic. War is extremely ugly. Innocents always suffer, including innocent children. That doesn’t make it a genocide though. I haven’t seen any credible reports that definitively establish that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. It is CERTAINLY not their stated goal.

Let me ask you, though - if you believe Israel is committing genocide because it intentionally targets civilians, do you also believe October 7 was genocide? Why or why not?

No, I don’t. Scale, for one. Effectiveness, for another. A one day attack, albeit with hostages, compared to a sustained multi-year campaign with tens of thousands of civilian deaths, with leaders of this campaign saying it will not stop until this nebulous goal of eradicating Hamas (which they make no effort to distinguish from civilian Palestinian citizens) is achieved. Acting like they are remotely the same is why people with your viewpoint are not to be taken seriously.

If what's happening in Palestine doesn't qualify as a genocide, what would qualify as a genocide? Many experts who study genocide have in fact said it does meet the definition. Why do you continue to deny it?

Rwanda.
Nazi Germany.

Genocide does not usually involve give the victims the ability to stop the genocide by surrendering.

We killed 10% of all Germans during WWII, was that a genocide? Of course not because we were at war and the Germans could stop it at any time by surrendering.
Are there war crimes being committed? Almost certainly. Every war has war crimes. There are plenty of war crimes to go around in this war.
Seriously, for every war crime you can name for the IDF, I can name a war crime for Hamas.
Beither side is playing it clean but Hamas started this.

War does not target civilians. They cannot surrender for Hamas anymore than I can prevent Trump from behaving recklessly. You're sick and I hope you burn.

People like you have hated people like me for thousands of years.
You only have sympathy for the people that started this war is because they are losing horribly.
They can surrender at any time. But instead of heaping scorn on hamas for starting all of this or pushing for hamas to surrender so all of this can stop, you insist that we either lose or quit.
This war will end when the Hamas leadership has surrendered, been tried and executed.

DP

Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.

Bigots like you justify their bigotry in all sorts of ways.
It's nothing new or novel.

We didn't invade anyone in 1948.

I commented on your actual posts. You are clearly a raging bigot. On the other hand, you have zero basis upon which to falsely label me a bigot. But go on, I guess, with the only tactic you’ve mastered, attacking others (at the expense of self-reflection, apparently).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My genuine question for all the many posters who seem SUPER concerned about Israel being a specifically JEWISH state (setting aside the fact that it’s actually an open pluralistic society and 20% of its citizens are non-Jewish Arabs that enjoy full rights);

What do you imagine a Palestinian state would be? Secular humanist? Please be real. It would be an Islamic country just like the scores of other Islamic countries in the region that, by and large, have a horrific record when it comes to treatment of women, gay people, and non-Muslims.

Maybe but Israel also has a horrific human rights record. And we are propping Israel up with billions and billions of aid - for what purpose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My genuine question for all the many posters who seem SUPER concerned about Israel being a specifically JEWISH state (setting aside the fact that it’s actually an open pluralistic society and 20% of its citizens are non-Jewish Arabs that enjoy full rights);

What do you imagine a Palestinian state would be? Secular humanist? Please be real. It would be an Islamic country just like the scores of other Islamic countries in the region that, by and large, have a horrific record when it comes to treatment of women, gay people, and non-Muslims.

Christians are in Palestine so framing it as a religious state is hilarious. It was historically multi-faith (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) under the generic label "The Holy Land".
Secular humanism is not an ideology befitting a holy land. Humanism is often used as another word for Satanism, and the ideology generally rejects belief in the supernatural including belief in a deity. The question is why is Israel such a state yet claiming God promised them the land. All the early Zionists are atheists.

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Anonymous wrote:I consider white skinned jews white people and the white jews I know personally consider themselves white afaik and are quite happy successful individuals. Very connected and have a great sense community, unlike many others. They drive fancy cars and have fancy beach homes, the ladies get brazilian blowouts and plastic surgery and designer clothes. The kids go to pricey camps and clubs and jave the best of everything.

You sound jealous lol

No but there’s no doubt that they consider themselves white. They’re whiter than white.

And there it is. “Whiter than white.” From the brilliant book “Jews Don’t Count”:

“… racists say Jews aren’t white. Problem is, progressives, in general, tend to think they are white and, therefore, not really deserving of the protections progressive movements offer to non-white people facing racism. In some cases, Jews and Jewishness are used to signify even greater whiteness than normal.”

I mean many are wealthy people with white skin, with european ancestry.

There what is? Jewish people with white skin can and do pass as white because they are white and reap the benefits of being white, genuis.

Ok just call them white then. Why call them “whiter than white”? Explain yourself.

I mean my jewish friends/acquaintances remind me of the wasps of the mid 1900s US. Very exclusive country club-ish, posh, privileged, exquisite, lovely, luxurious life. They attend exclusive schools and universities and have connections and networking most can only dream of.

Ok got it. So to you white = rich, and Jews are ultra rich.

Do you think that protects them from antisemitism?

I don’t know? How are the wealthy extremely connected white jews I know affected by antisemitism? They have more support and a stronger network than anyone else I know.

Maybe ask them if you don’t know instead of assuming.

You say they remind you of the WASPs of the mid 1900s. Funny thing about those WASPs is that they discriminated against Jews, including rich Jews. Jews were prohibited from joining country clubs, and established their own for that reason. Woodmont Country Club right here in Rockville, Maryland was founded in 1913 when Jews were prohibited from joining other clubs in the Washington, D.C., area.

Well the tide has turned. The pendulum has swung.

It can swing back at any time. That’s the point.

But it hasn’t yet so unless you have a crystal ball this is impossible to predict. There should be a happy medium where everyone is treated equally.

You can see how this might come across to Jewish people though right? “Sure you’ve been discriminated against in basically every society you’ve been able to find some stability for your entire history, but this time is different, we promise.” [goes on to talk about how all Jews are ultra wealthy and live fabulous lives of luxury]

We can agree that wealthy white american jews are not discriminated against anymore correct? Anymore than anyone else?

Would you believe that not all white American Jews are wealthy?

Where are the poor nonconnected lonely white jews? In Kansas I suppose? All they need to do is move to my town and they’ll be set for life.

Why is Jews’ wealth or lack thereof at all relevant to this discussion? We’ve established that wealthy Jews can be and do experience antisemitism despite their wealth (and sometimes because of it).

How though? How do wealthy white American jews face antisemitism on a daily basis any more than any other American is experiencing discrimination of various forms?

I literally just explained this above and you said it was abhorrent and horrific. Why are we going around in circles?

Discrimination will always exist, racism, sexism, classism, ageism, antisemitism, etc. How are wealthy white jews affected worse than any other minority person in the US? Other than being shot at, in which everyone is at risk in the US, what risks are there to being a rich white American jew?

The risk that your child will get knifed by an antisemitic lunatic at their Jewish school, for one thing.

How many white american jewish kids have been stabbed to death?

In the last month, two Jewish young people have been shot in DC for being Jewish.

Horrible act of violence and all of us are at risk of being stabbed by a delusional mental patient as well. This just happened in my neighborhood last week. Unfortunately nowhere is 100% perfectly safe for anyone.

But Jews are at risk for both random and targeted violence, so it’s not equal.

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Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

Well, have you donated to the Romani Repatriation Fund?

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Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

If you were in an interpersonal relationship with someone and they always referred to some person as a ‘soul mate’ they knew and supported and it clearly wasn’t you. They like you fine, you meet their basic needs, etc. but ultimately they are destined to return or marry this special magical person who most definitely is not you. They take you for granted because they know deep down that the grass isn’t greener necessarily and you will always be there to welcome them back with open arms. How would you feel?

This is some weird ass projection and deeply offensive to American Jews. Do better. Educate yourself. https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/dual-loyalty.

There are an estimated 10,000 American Jews currently serving in the US military. Approximately 550,000 Jews served in the US military during World War II. Jews have also served in significant numbers in other conflicts, including the Korean War (150,000) and Vietnam (30,000).

This. My Jewish cousin is a Navy SEAL. He puts his life on the line for this country. WTF do you do for this country?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My genuine question for all the many posters who seem SUPER concerned about Israel being a specifically JEWISH state (setting aside the fact that it’s actually an open pluralistic society and 20% of its citizens are non-Jewish Arabs that enjoy full rights);

What do you imagine a Palestinian state would be? Secular humanist? Please be real. It would be an Islamic country just like the scores of other Islamic countries in the region that, by and large, have a horrific record when it comes to treatment of women, gay people, and non-Muslims.

Maybe but Israel also has a horrific human rights record. And we are propping Israel up with billions and billions of aid - for what purpose?

I mean, do you want an actual answer? Cause it’s not just “those wily Jews control congre$$”

In actuality, it’s:
-Geopolitical Stability: Israel provides a stable ally in a region prone to volatility, serving as a dependable partner for the U.S. in the Middle East.
-Military and Intelligence Cooperation: Close collaboration with Israel strengthens U.S. military and intelligence capabilities, particularly in counterterrorism and advanced technology.
-Containment of Hostile Powers: Israel helps counterbalance adversaries like Iran and militant groups, protecting U.S. interests in the region.
-Protection of Energy Resources: While not an oil producer, Israel's strategic position helps the U.S. safeguard access to Middle Eastern energy supplies.
-Diplomatic Leverage: U.S. support for Israel gives it influence in Middle Eastern diplomacy.
-Technological and Economic Collaboration: Israel's leadership in tech innovation and defense offers significant economic and technological benefits to the U.S. through collaboration.
…..and lots more