NJ to teach gender lessons

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

That isn't happening.

So you agree that would be inappropriate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

Not true. Not one study has been posted that says that. Just one about kids going through puberty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

That isn't happening.

So you agree that would be inappropriate?

I think it’s good to be inclusive in age-appropriate ways.

I don’t think it’s good for Rs to misrepresent what is actually happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

Not true. Not one study has been posted that says that. Just one about kids going through puberty.

PP here, sorry I should have clarified this was involving kids who were were allowed to go through puberty without transitioning. A majority of those kids will later identify with their biological sex. But you honestly think the explosion of kids especially girls with no history of gender dysphoria or gender non conformity as young kids are truly transgender? What do you think is going to happen with these kids after the initial euphoria and excitement of transitioning wears off and they realize it wasn’t the solution to their problems. Why do you think other countries have re-evaluated their protocols? I highly recommend watching the Swedish documentary The Trans Train to get a better understanding of what is going on.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

Not true. Not one study has been posted that says that. Just one about kids going through puberty.

They’re also misrepresenting the Karolinska study suggesting treatment=suicide risk. The author of that study has said that’s not an accurate assessment of her findings and not what the study reported. It’s still being thrown around in an effort to withhold treatment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

That isn't happening.

So you agree that would be inappropriate?

I think it’s good to be inclusive in age-appropriate ways.

I don’t think it’s good for Rs to misrepresent what is actually happening.

BS. I'm not sure how these lessons are "misrepresented."

[Anonymous]

No wonder kids can’t read or count to ten

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

Not true. Not one study has been posted that says that. Just one about kids going through puberty.

PP here, sorry I should have clarified this was involving kids who were were allowed to go through puberty without transitioning. A majority of those kids will later identify with their biological sex. But you honestly think the explosion of kids especially girls with no history of gender dysphoria or gender non conformity as young kids are truly transgender? What do you think is going to happen with these kids after the initial euphoria and excitement of transitioning wears off and they realize it wasn’t the solution to their problems. Why do you think other countries have re-evaluated their protocols? I highly recommend watching the Swedish documentary The Trans Train to get a better understanding of what is going on.

Thanks for admitting that you misrepresented that study. It was only young, prepubescent kids (<12) with GD.

There aren’t “several reputable studies”, as you claimed, supporting “The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex” or “the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.”

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

No you are misunderstanding the previous posts. There have been several reputable studies that have shown if kids with gender dysphoria are left alone a vast majority will later identify with their birth sex. Long term studies on regret for the current cohort of transgender individuals really don’t exist. Studies that only evaluate a year or two later are not long term studies. The explosion of kids especially girls identifying as trans are not reflected in older studies. European countries including Finland, the UK, Sweden and France have changed their protocols regarding treatment for kids with gender dysphoria because the evidence is lacking and of poor quality. The UK has had a 4,400% increase in the number of girls with gender dysphoria over the past decade. Anyone who has actually followed what is going on can see the red flags including doctors. I will see if I can find the study that shows the suicide rate post transition. If I remember correctly they still have a suicide rate 19x greater than the general population and the suicide rates tend to increase around year 7 post transition.

Not true. Not one study has been posted that says that. Just one about kids going through puberty.

They’re also misrepresenting the Karolinska study suggesting treatment=suicide risk. The author of that study has said that’s not an accurate assessment of her findings and not what the study reported. It’s still being thrown around in an effort to withhold treatment.

It is important when looking at studies to see when they are flawed or essentially junk science. The Karolinska study published a study in 2019 which reported that “gender-affirming" surgeries for gender dysphoric patients are associated with improved mental health outcomes. After the study was published, many researchers and scientists alerted the American Journal of Psychiatry to multiple serious methodological problems that challenged the study’s conclusion. They were eventually forced to issue a correction. Nine months after the study’s original publication, the AJP stated, “the results [of the reanalysis] demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts”.

https://segm.org/ajp_correction_2020

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

That isn't happening.

So you agree that would be inappropriate?

I think it’s good to be inclusive in age-appropriate ways.

I don’t think it’s good for Rs to misrepresent what is actually happening.

BS. I'm not sure how these lessons are "misrepresented."

Which school in NJ uses those lesson plans.

NONE.

Fake news.

[Anonymous]

This is the same bigoted Chris Rufo who made up CRT out of thin air. The guy is a Koch-backed think tank dweeb in pleated khakis.

Which schools are teaching about Rainbow pride flags in preK? NONE. We go to one of the most progressive preschools in DC and they don’t teach about that. And, even if they did, the vaaaaaaaast majority of preK in this country is private schools. So parents can exercise their choice.

I just can’t with this naked bigot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the same bigoted Chris Rufo who made up CRT out of thin air. The guy is a Koch-backed think tank dweeb in pleated khakis.

Which schools are teaching about Rainbow pride flags in preK? NONE. We go to one of the most progressive preschools in DC and they don’t teach about that. And, even if they did, the vaaaaaaaast majority of preK in this country is private schools. So parents can exercise their choice.

I just can’t with this naked bigot.

Thanks. I was trying to remember where I had heard his name before.

More lies from RWNJs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the same bigoted Chris Rufo who made up CRT out of thin air. The guy is a Koch-backed think tank dweeb in pleated khakis.

Which schools are teaching about Rainbow pride flags in preK? NONE. We go to one of the most progressive preschools in DC and they don’t teach about that. And, even if they did, the vaaaaaaaast majority of preK in this country is private schools. So parents can exercise their choice.

I just can’t with this naked bigot.

Those lessons are from the Evanston-Skokie district in Illinois. For preK through 3rd.

[Anonymous]

Reconsidering Informed Consent for Trans-Identified Children, Adolescents, and Young Adults (Published March 2022)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2046221#

Increase in Numbers
-Currently, 2-9% of U.S. high school students identify as transgender, while in colleges, 3% of males and 5% of females identify as gender-diverse
-Many suffer from significant comorbid mental health disorders, have neurocognitive difficulties such as ADHD or autism or have a history of trauma
-Researchers are noting that the dramatic rise of teens declaring a trans identity appears to be, at least in part, a result of peer influence
-Another influx noted during the COVID lockdowns and some have hypothesized that increased isolation coupled with heavy internet exposure may be responsible

Desistance and Detransition
-There have been eleven research studies to date indicating a high rate of resolution of gender incongruence in children by late adolescence or young adulthood without medical interventions (Cantor, 2020; Ristori & Steensma, 2016; Singh et al., 2021)
-A period of strong cross-sex identification in childhood is commonly associated with future homosexuality
-Recent study from a UK adult gender clinic, 6.9% of those treated with gender-affirmative interventions detransitioned within only 16 months of starting treatment, and another 3.4% had a pattern of care suggestive of detransition, yielding a rate of probable detransition in excess of 10%. Another 21.7% of patients disengaged from the clinic without completing their treatment plan
-Another study from a UK primary care practice found that 12.2% of those who had started hormonal treatments either detransitioned or documented regret, while the total of 20% stopped the treatments for a wider range of reasons
-Regret may take up to 8-11 years to materialize

Suicide
-Notion that trans-identified youth are at alarmingly high risk of suicide usually stems from biased online samples that rely on self-report
-Recent analysis of data from the biggest pediatric gender clinic in the world, the UK’s Tavistock, found the rate of completed youth suicides to be 0.03% over a 10-year period, which translates into the annual rate of 13 per 100,000
-Similar rates of suicidality compared to teens who are gay, lesbian and bisexual
-Depression, eating disorders, autism spectrum conditions, and other mental health conditions commonly found in transgender-identifying youth
-Short-term, gender-affirmative interventions can lead to improvements in some measures of suicidality but neither hormones nor surgeries have been shown to reduce suicidality in the long-term
-Longitudinal study from Sweden that covered more than a 30-year span found that adults who underwent surgical transition were 19 times more likely than their age-matched peers to die by suicide overall, with female-to-male participants’ risk 40 times the expected rate
-Another key longitudinal study from the Netherlands concluded that suicides occur at a similar rate at all stages of transition, from pretreatment assessment to post-transition follow-up

The Dutch Protocol (Basis for the current Gender affirmation model)
-Study with only 55 participants and a 1.5 year followup is the basis for medically transitioning minors as outlined in the 2017 Endocrine Society guidelines
-Suffers from a high risk of bias due to their study design, which is effectively a non-randomized case series—one of the lowest levels of evidence
-Interventions described in the study are currently being applied to adolescents who were not cross-gender identified prior to puberty, who have significant mental health problems, as well as those who have non-binary identities—all of these presentations were explicitly disqualified from the Dutch protocol
-Evidence underlying the practice of pediatric gender transition is widely recognized to be of very low quality