NJ to teach gender lessons

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

Not the pp you replied to. I specifically asked what the appropriate age is to "allow" a person to transition and was told 25. That's a lot older than elementary school.

Actually, 25 is an appropriate age considering that is when the brain is fully developed.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

Maybe that should be the age of adulthood, consent, etc then?

It's the age when you can get a rental car. When you are allowed to be responsible with someone else's car. Before that, it's only yourself that you're hurting.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

Question: We have laws that make it illegal for people to consume alcohol before 21, smoke before age 18, vote before age 18, own a firearm before age 18 - because the brains of our youth are not fully developed and their decision-making is not mature.

Why would we allow our youth to take gender transition medication, or worse.... gender transition surgeries..... when we have laws making other, less life-changing actions, illegal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

Question: We have laws that make it illegal for people to consume alcohol before 21, smoke before age 18, vote before age 18, own a firearm before age 18 - because the brains of our youth are not fully developed and their decision-making is not mature.

Why would we allow our youth to take gender transition medication, or worse.... gender transition surgeries..... when we have laws making other, less life-changing actions, illegal?

It's medical treatment developed in consultation with a physician not a cigarette. At what age should we let kids get chemotherapy? The regret rates are much higher than for gender affirmation surgery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

Question: We have laws that make it illegal for people to consume alcohol before 21, smoke before age 18, vote before age 18, own a firearm before age 18 - because the brains of our youth are not fully developed and their decision-making is not mature.

Why would we allow our youth to take gender transition medication, or worse.... gender transition surgeries..... when we have laws making other, less life-changing actions, illegal?

It's medical treatment developed in consultation with a physician not a cigarette. At what age should we let kids get chemotherapy? The regret rates are much higher than for gender affirmation surgery.

Perhaps that medical treatment should be at the hands of a psychologist, not a surgeon.

[Anonymous]

Parents generally have to consent to medical treatments for their children.

I personally don't think a parent should be making a decision about gender reassignment for a child which to me means the decision should be made by the individual after they are 18.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

Question: We have laws that make it illegal for people to consume alcohol before 21, smoke before age 18, vote before age 18, own a firearm before age 18 - because the brains of our youth are not fully developed and their decision-making is not mature.

Why would we allow our youth to take gender transition medication, or worse.... gender transition surgeries..... when we have laws making other, less life-changing actions, illegal?

Surely there are no longterm effects of taking hormones to prevent puberty or having a surgeon slice one up to make a pretend penis; or having a surgeon chop of a penis turn it inside out and make a fake vagina that must be regularly dilated because one’s body is constantly trying to heal the gaping wound?

what could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

Question: We have laws that make it illegal for people to consume alcohol before 21, smoke before age 18, vote before age 18, own a firearm before age 18 - because the brains of our youth are not fully developed and their decision-making is not mature.

Why would we allow our youth to take gender transition medication, or worse.... gender transition surgeries..... when we have laws making other, less life-changing actions, illegal?

Surely there are no longterm effects of taking hormones to prevent puberty or having a surgeon slice one up to make a pretend penis; or having a surgeon chop of a penis turn it inside out and make a fake vagina that must be regularly dilated because one’s body is constantly trying to heal the gaping wound?

what could possibly go wrong?

As long as the family is fully informed about the procedure and possible outcomes/risks, then it should be up to them to make the decision along with a team of medical professionals.

Not you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

If a child says they feel like a cat, should we provide them with a litter box?

The vast majority of gender dysphoric youth go on to identify as their biological sex. Its cruel to sentence a person to a lifetime of medical treatment, infertility, etc because they had identity struggles as a kid.

DP.. you are being insulting to people who have real gender identity issues, and I'm a PP who is not in favor of pushing the "sometimes a boy can feel like a girl" curriculum.

There are people who have legitimate issues with gender identity. Imagine being confused about your gender identity without anyone pushing that narrative. The suicide rate in this community is very high, in part, because of people like you. You belittle what they are going through, and your flippant attitude is probably why liberals keep pushing the envelope on these issues.

DP. PP is not being insulting. The FACT is that the majority of confused kids do go on to identify as their biological sex. Imagine what the suicide rate will be when kids who were allowed to make permanent changes to their bodies decide that was a big mistake as a young adult, the age when mental health issues typically arise. Children need guidance. Many children may need therapy. What they don't need is adults not their parents, and who do not know anything about the child's history, talking to them and/or encouraging them about such life-changing thoughts and feelings.

What are the numbers on this? I keep seeing people talking about children making permanent changes to their bodies and later regretting it in large numbers but is it actually a large number kind of thing? First off, how many trans kids are being treated with cross sex hormones? Second, are there statistics on how many regret it? What is the solution for it, just tell trans kids they have to wait until they’re 18? Or is that still too young? Is there a too old? What age range do you deem appropriate for someone to know they are a trans person?

I think age 25. Prefrontal cortex is formed and they probably have some romantic relationships under their belt.

It is hard to define and quantify regret, but studies suggest that the majority have clear regret. Here's one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

Another that I posted upthread from the highly respected Karolinska found people were 19x more likely to kill themselves after the surgery.

I think empathy is incredibly important and its important to consider all the unintended consequences of advocating for a certain approach. I'd highly recommend listening to or reading interviews with people who were transitioned as children. I used to be in favor of this but the more I read, I have become solidly opposed.

That's not what your link says. It says that from a pool of "7928 transgender patients who underwent any type of GAS" that "a total of 77 patients regretted having had GAS." That's not even 1%. The group where the majority had clear regret was OF THAT 1%. The study concluded that "Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS." You get much higher rates of regret from chemotherapy. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3015023/)

It's very strange to become "solidly opposed" based on this research.

DP. I don't know about how many that undergo transition and then regret it, but I think the issue at hand is the percentage that go on to identify as their birth gender by young adulthood, and the above study shows 80%.

Where does it show that?

This study is specifically looking at patients who underwent gender-assignment surgery (GAS).

"In total, the included studies pooled 7928 cases of transgender individuals who underwent any type of GAS."

+++++++

Still waiting on a response to this. Where exactly is the 80% statistic in the study?

Because the study linked said that only 1% of people who had GAS regretted it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5841333/

This says that 80% of GDC (prepubescent GD) desist the GD diagnosis as they go through puberty.

“Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty.”


That’s not “young adulthood”.

So...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

Sounds like almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

1. So studies cited above shows that most children who question their gender pre puberty tend to revert to their birth gender after puberty if they are allowed to undergo puberty without medical blockers.

2. So one study concluded that people who underwent GAS (age of patients unclear) generally did not regret having surgery although that does not mean they were not depressed and 19x times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.

1. That’s for the tiny number of children as they go through puberty. Not representative of all trans youth.

2. Hopefully, with increased community acceptance, there will fewer cases of depression/suicide.

Again...still haven't seen any studies that show that the majority of youth show "clear regret" as they get into young adulthood.

And almost no regret for people who've gone through gender-affirmation surgery.

PP is full of crap.

Still crickets.

Just like Shrier - making up random crap that isn’t backed up by data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why we emphasizing feeling like a boy or girl at age 6. I really thought as a society we were moving toward not emphasizing that there were “boy” or “girl” activities, feelings and toys for kids. These lessons seem like a step backwards into segregating into gender stereotypes.

This x1000. It’s absurd and disturbing. Wth does “feel like a girl or a boy” mean to 1st grader? But I also agree it can’t be discussed here. I think there will be a backlash.

I think that's the point of the lesson...

A child is told at a very young age that they are a <insert gender here> from their parents. It's just a label. But, what if the 6 yr old boy wants to be a girl, and "feels" like a girl. He sees his sister or friend in a pretty dress and wants to wear one, or vice versa.. a girl wants to "look" like a boy. A long time ago, this was called a "tomboy" for a girl, but there was no equivalent for a boy. But, today, we call it something else. In some ways, it's good that children who feel differently are taught that there is nothing wrong with them.

OTH, I do think that children are very impressionable, and teaching them about certain advanced topics at this tender age makes them more prone to think that that's them, too, even if it isn't. This is may cause unnecessary confusion.

Maybe a more toned down curriculum would be better, focusing on accepting people who are "different" rather than "you might feel like a girl when they said you were a boy".

Accepting people who are different is literally the entire point of the exercise. It’s also what the right wing absolutely cannot stand. Anything short of rigorously enforced, antiquated gender roles assigned on genitalia present at birth simply will not do for them.

Bull$hit.
Telling young children that their sex is fluid *is* the point of these exercises. And, it is inappropriate.

Accepting people who are "different" is totally acceptable. Newsflash here: We are ALL different. Teaching others kindness and compassion is one thing.... telling them that they may feel like a girl even though they are a boy is not appropriate. How in the hell does a boy know what being a girl *feels* like? He doesn't because he is a boy.

Listen, I’m sorry you can’t understand people who think differently than you. But that’s a you problem, it’s not a 6-year old’s problem. Try to get with the picture and start showing a bit of empathy.

I taught 6 YOs for years.
It is ridiculous to tell them that they may be a boy but *feel* like a girl. Talk about confusing these little ones!!!

Six year olds have no idea what "gender" means other than a box that is checked on forms for "male" or "female."
And, you know what? Many of us agree with their thinking. The whole concept of "gender fluidity" is just ridiculous.

It’s a good thing you’re not teaching anymore. My little boy knows he’s a boy through and through and he’s not even 6. At his agr, I was a lot more unsure. People said I was a girl, but I didn’t like girl things. I didn’t want to be what society said a girl must be. Good thing I grew up among reasonable people and strong role models of both sexes instead of mentally fragile people who can’t handle any deviation from their gender world view without losing their minds. So damn fragile.

You have no idea who you are speaking to.
You don't have to like traditional "girl" things to be a girl. That is not what makes a girl a girl. You should know better than that.

+1. The left literally talks about "gender identity" and wants us to put our pronouns on everything. Gender obsession.

The people who can't stop talking about transgenderism are conservatives. I've never had any discussion about the topic with a liberal - and I know many of them.

+1,000. It’s an obsession to those people. It’s like they can’t go a single day without bullying on some marginalized population. Before them, it was gay folks, working moms, black protestors, moms on food stamps, college kids, the list goes on. I thought they were so happy and secure thanks to their good looks and church attendance and charity. From what I’ve seen they’re no stronger than the straw men they throw at every single argument.

Pathetic.

+1

Conservatives are hateful bullies, always looking for a target for their venom.

Hey, if you want to call us "bullies" for demanding to keep this crap out of elementary grades, specifically K-3 - then go for it.
The majority of parents don't want this indoctrination in classrooms. I am happy to be on the side of reasonable people.

And, the ONLY reason we are talking about it is because some activists in school systems can't seem to comprehend that gender identity instruction in the primary grades is absurd.

What is absurd about this:

Social and Sexual Health
Social and Sexual Health is a person’s ability to communicate and interact with others efficiently. Individuals are able to form meaningful
relationships with others and interact in healthy, appropriate ways. They encompass respect and accept differences of an individual’s race,
religion, gender identity, gender expression, ethnicity, disability, socioeconomic background, and perspectives of health-related decisions. The
extent to which people connect with others in different environments, adapt to various social and sexual situations, feel supported by individuals,
institutions, and experience a sense of belonging, all contribute to social and sexual health.

By the end of grade 2
• Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
• Families shape the way we
think about our bodies, our
health and our behaviors.
• People have relationships with
others in the local community
and beyond.
• Communication is the basis for
strengthening relationships and
resolving conflict between
people.
• Conflicts between people
occur, and there are effective
ways to resolve them.

Still waiting to hear what is so “absurd” about this.

It's not absurd. And, this is not what is causing outrage.

Standards are one thing. The methods in which they are taught are another. This is the problem.
When this standard: Every individual has unique
skills and qualities, which can
include the activities they
enjoy such as how they may
dress, their mannerisms, things
they like to do.
is taught by teaching children that if they are a boy, they might feel like a girl, then there is a problem.

That isn't happening.