An immigrants musings on the SAHM vs working mom debate

[Anonymous]

I am a Pakistani immigrant in the United States and I love this country and the liberties I am offered here as a young woman. When I peruse this website, I am often shocked at the bitterness that seems to engulf most working women/moms on DCUM. Where I come from, women are not allowed to work. The woman's place is considered to be the kitchen and her primary duty in life is to bear children and care for them. This attitude is so prevalent that many across the country deem it unnecessary to send their girls to school.

Among the upper classes, girls do receive quite a good liberal arts education at their exclusive private schools. These girls, however, are expected to stick to "feminine" subjects such as literature, arts, painting, music and history. Upon graduation they are sent to either private liberal arts colleges abroad where they obtain a degree in a field such as art or photography and then when they return back to the country after graduating, they promptly get married off to wealthy men at least 5 years their senior.

These women then, live all the trappings of the upper/upper middle class life that so many on here wish for. They have chauffeurs, chefs and an army of servants. Their primary role is to bear children and groom them for the upper class life. They never have to worry about money since they are married to "provider husbands" and all they do is host tea parties and gossip about each other.

Some of them are really happy with this set up. Many however, are not. Many girls get sucked into this system without ever having a say in it. They don't usually have a choice in studying what they want or marrying who they want or being someone other than a tea party hosting society wife. Many women also deeply resent that fact that they never get to earn their own income. They are supported by their parents in childhood to their husbands and in laws after marriage. This obviously puts them in a supreme economic disadvantage and dependent on their families and husbands. If things aren't going well, the women have no way out except to stick it out and suffer. Many have never had the chance to find true love, develop a sense of independence or live life on their own terms.

Among the lower classes things are worse. Along with the lack of freedom and autonomy, the women here kept in poverty since working outside of the home is considered shameful. Some do venture out and get employed as servants or clothes washers but they are paid poorly and usually mistreated, sexually assaulted etc.

Coming to America and living the average life here is a dream. I LOVE that I have economic independence from my parents and my husband. I work, not necessarily because I WANT to. It fulfills me, helps me develop my skills and grow my mind and help contribute e to my household. It is a privilege to be able to earn a paycheck doing work I want and wear what I want and go where I want.

I'd never ever take this for granted. I don't envy SAHM wives at all! I love being able to contribute to society and earn my own living. It is a privilege afforded to so few!

[Anonymous]

You described life in America before the 1970s when the feminist movement came about.

It used to be just about getting a "Mrs." Degree in college. Women would stay in bad marriages because they had no means to support themselves.

Now women have options.

I have an advanced STEM graduate degree and WAH full-time.

My parents always advised their kids to always have options...and my mother advised to always keep a fire in the iron regarding employment (even if you reduce hours, don't quit). You never know what can happen in life. Never be totally dependent on anyone else.

[Anonymous]

This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Pakistani immigrant in the United States and I love this country and the liberties I am offered here as a young woman. When I peruse this website, I am often shocked at the bitterness that seems to engulf most working women/moms on DCUM. Where I come from, women are not allowed to work. The woman's place is considered to be the kitchen and her primary duty in life is to bear children and care for them. This attitude is so prevalent that many across the country deem it unnecessary to send their girls to school.

Among the upper classes, girls do receive quite a good liberal arts education at their exclusive private schools. These girls, however, are expected to stick to "feminine" subjects such as literature, arts, painting, music and history. Upon graduation they are sent to either private liberal arts colleges abroad where they obtain a degree in a field such as art or photography and then when they return back to the country after graduating, they promptly get married off to wealthy men at least 5 years their senior.

These women then, live all the trappings of the upper/upper middle class life that so many on here wish for. They have chauffeurs, chefs and an army of servants. Their primary role is to bear children and groom them for the upper class life. They never have to worry about money since they are married to "provider husbands" and all they do is host tea parties and gossip about each other.

Some of them are really happy with this set up. Many however, are not. Many girls get sucked into this system without ever having a say in it. They don't usually have a choice in studying what they want or marrying who they want or being someone other than a tea party hosting society wife. Many women also deeply resent that fact that they never get to earn their own income. They are supported by their parents in childhood to their husbands and in laws after marriage. This obviously puts them in a supreme economic disadvantage and dependent on their families and husbands. If things aren't going well, the women have no way out except to stick it out and suffer. Many have never had the chance to find true love, develop a sense of independence or live life on their own terms.

Among the lower classes things are worse. Along with the lack of freedom and autonomy, the women here kept in poverty since working outside of the home is considered shameful. Some do venture out and get employed as servants or clothes washers but they are paid poorly and usually mistreated, sexually assaulted etc.

Coming to America and living the average life here is a dream. I LOVE that I have economic independence from my parents and my husband. I work, not necessarily because I WANT to. It fulfills me, helps me develop my skills and grow my mind and help contribute e to my household. It is a privilege to be able to earn a paycheck doing work I want and wear what I want and go where I want.

I'd never ever take this for granted. I don't envy SAHM wives at all! I love being able to contribute to society and earn my own living. It is a privilege afforded to so few!

Yup. Upper class females in my birth country live the same lives. Men know that females have zero economic freedom and divorce laws are in favor of the man. This means that many of these upper class men can abuse their wives and/or cheat on them with impunity. Yuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for a lovely and interesting post OP.

The shrews won't like it though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

+1

And in our neoliberal society, many women have no choice other than to WOH.

[Anonymous]

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

Unlike in your country, SAHMs here aren't prisoners and can think for themselves.

You are what you are ranting about. Irony Bronzy Goldy. Personally I could care less what some third world woman thinks.

I gotta go now. My mushy unemployed brain has some serious internet shopping to do and my lady coffee clutch is about to arrive. We have lots to gossip about today !

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

It's not a *real* choice though, for many on DCUM. A real choice is when a woman is independently wealthy and doesn't have to make a financial or professional gamble to SAH. It seems to me that most of the women on DCUM who SAH do so because 1) their spouses worked really long hours/traveled frequently so it was too hard on the family not to have the wife SAH; 2) women were not able to negotiate a family-friendly work load (big law) after having young kids; 3) women earned too little to justify working only to break even with the high cost of child care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

OP here. I disagree. Being able to provide for yourself, open a bank account in your name, being able to rent an apartment without needing a father or a husband to co-sign it for you. THAT is a privilege. Being able to go to a safe, clean office where you are respected and treated as an equal and allowed to voice your opinion and develop as a professional. That is a privilege.

In America, a woman does not HAVE to work. If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. That she can do so if she WANTS to, that is a privilege.

Women historically were literally not allowed to work outside of the home. Now that we can, it is a privilege. To think otherwise is to be ungrateful.

[Anonymous]

I have a trust fund and a great pre nup protecting my pre marital assets. I made the choice to have three children and stay at home, I won't return to full time work.

Most of my friends have chosen to SAH, and are happy with their choice. it's having the choice that made them feel grateful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

It's not a *real* choice though, for many on DCUM. A real choice is when a woman is independently wealthy and doesn't have to make a financial or professional gamble to SAH. It seems to me that most of the women on DCUM who SAH do so because 1) their spouses worked really long hours/traveled frequently so it was too hard on the family not to have the wife SAH; 2) women were not able to negotiate a family-friendly work load (big law) after having young kids; 3) women earned too little to justify working only to break even with the high cost of child care.

They same can be said if you flip it around. A real choice is when a couple can live a decent middle class lifestyle without the need for both spouses working in order to pay for the mortgage and childcare. Most WOHMs I know have to work especially in this area, whether they want to or not- either for enough income to make ends meet or for healthcare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. I disagree. Being able to provide for yourself, open a bank account in your name, being able to rent an apartment without needing a father or a husband to co-sign it for you. THAT is a privilege. Being able to go to a safe, clean office where you are respected and treated as an equal and allowed to voice your opinion and develop as a professional. That is a privilege.

In America, a woman does not HAVE to work. If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. That she can do so if she WANTS to, that is a privilege.

Women historically were literally not allowed to work outside of the home. Now that we can, it is a privilege. To think otherwise is to be ungrateful.

Oh boy you are going to get flamed for this. I was actually about to flame you myself (lululemon pants, come on) but then remembered that my very middle-class sister and BIL have this arrangement. Sister can work if she wants to, but BIL makes just enough for them to live comfortably (public school, shopping sales, etc). So there's that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a trust fund and a great pre nup protecting my pre marital assets. I made the choice to have three children and stay at home, I won't return to full time work.

Most of my friends have chosen to SAH, and are happy with their choice. it's having the choice that made them feel grateful.

Maybe in your "trust fund" and "great pre nup" circle your SAH are making that choice without financial or professional risk. I hope you realize, however, that your circumstances are exceedingly rare and that most of us don't have those safety nets. In other words, you can't generalize about the "choice" to stay at home based upon your highly unique circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This doesn't seem like musings. It's you starting another lame WOHM vs SAHM debate. Good for you that you love working out of the home, that you don't envy SAHMs and that you think working is the only way to contribute to society. Clap, clap.

My parents were immigrants and they love America as do I. It's because we have the CHOICE. No one here is forced to stay veiled and at home. If we can afford to stay at home we have that choice.

You don't have to put down a SAHM by thinking she isn't a contributing member to society. Your missing the point of the freedoms we have. Rather than thinking you are doing some great service to the world by earning a paycheck you're missing that you have that choice to do so or to not do so.

Working out of the home is not the privilege. The CHOICE is the privilege.

Yup, right here is the entire "argument," such as it is. No other words necessary.

OP here. I disagree. Being able to provide for yourself, open a bank account in your name, being able to rent an apartment without needing a father or a husband to co-sign it for you. THAT is a privilege. Being able to go to a safe, clean office where you are respected and treated as an equal and allowed to voice your opinion and develop as a professional. That is a privilege.

In America, a woman does not HAVE to work. If she doesn't want a very UMC life, she can live comfortably on her husband's middle class salary sans the private school and the lululemon yoga pants. That she can do so if she WANTS to, that is a privilege.

Women historically were literally not allowed to work outside of the home. Now that we can, it is a privilege. To think otherwise is to be ungrateful.

It's not mutually exclusive, though, that's where you're misguided. First of all, "In America, a woman does not HAVE to work" is beyond untrue for very, very many families. Of course being able to work out of the home would be a privilege from your perspective. For others it's a matter of necessity and survival. But what you're missing is that it's also a privilege to not have to work out of the home. The feminists of the 60s and 70s fought very hard to ensure that women would be in a position to decide for herself and her family what makes sense to them and what works for them. THAT's the privilege.