Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

What? The Balfour declaration did not establish the state of Israel. It expressed general British support for the idea of Zionism. The UN did not recognize Israel until 1949, after the Jews had already built up the state and fought a war over it. And your last sentence is a complete non-sequitur. As far as I know, a big part of Romani history/culture/tradition is living a nomadic lifestyle. They have never had serious nationalist aspirations or taken any steps to establish a state (again, as far as I know). If they had, maybe they could have also gotten buy-in from the British or recognition from the UN. Again, I have no idea and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

As a neutral person in this argument, I view any European person whose ethnicity /creed/race was slaughtered in the Holocaust as victims and literally the only reason Europeans who identified as jewish were provided a safe haven in Isreal was because of religion.

Even assuming this is true (it’s not) you think it’s….a bad thing that Jews were provided safe haven? You’d rather they weren’t? I’m not getting your point here.

Every victim should have been provided a safe haven.

Ok no one is disagreeing with you there. What does that have to do with Israel? It shouldn’t exist because other victims were not also given a safe haven?

No it should exist but just admit it was founded on religious beliefs.

I don’t think anyone is denying that religion played a part. It’s literally a Jewish state lol. What people are objecting to is the idea that Jews founded a state there “because God told them they own it.” That’s one small part of the bigger picture. Maybe you missed my other post. It said:

43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

So to clarify, some magical thinking is involved here.

Where? Point it out specifically please. There are religious people in every society. I get it, you don’t like them and think they’re stupid.

Making Aliyah is logical?

Immigrating to Israel is illogical? Do you think it’s illogical to move to any other country or just Israel?

Immigrating as a born and bred American to my ‘homeland’ any is absurd for any reason, especially because God told me it’s my Holy Place, that goes for any place on earth or any religion. It’s nonsense.

Ok so don’t do it? No one is forcing you to. Do you go on threads where people talk about going to church and insult them too? What about Muslims making hajj? We get it, you’re an edgy atheist who’s smarter than religious people.

If you’ll only accept atheist points of view on Israel, listen to Sam Harris. He has plenty of intelligent things to say, genuinely.

When people seek immigration to a foreign country, why even live here at all? Just go. It’s insulting and sad for me as a proud American to hear that people want to leave. This is my home, the only home I have. Help us improve and nurture our home here. It’s like being in a relationship with someone and they constantly talk about another better, superior relationship. Like why even talk to me if I’m not good enough, why stay here in the US if it’s not good enough or fulfilling enough?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

You are making a bunch of assumptions about Jews and Israelis that are flatly incorrect.

Jews are not “obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so.” 43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

They actually DID consider other places, including Uganda, Madagascar, Japan, the USSR, but were rebuffed for various reasons: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state. Mind you, I’m sure wherever they had decided to settle, people would now be screaming about them being evil white coloniser genocidaires.

But why did the early zionists decide to return? Why not immigrate to the US or Canada where life is generally more accepting? Why the constant pull toward Israel? Why Israel specifically? And again not to minimize the Holocaust but Jewish people weren’t the only people slaughtered. Romanis and other groups, as you are aware, lost huge percentages of their population and they still have no homeland. Do they not count? Why were they not given land somewhere to ensure their safety?

Can you not read? The US and Canada were restricting immigration severely. The US famously sent a ship full of German Jewish refugees BACK to Germany to be slaughtered in Auschwitz.

Stop bringing up the Romani and using their tragedy as a rhetorical weapon. Nobody “gave” the Jews Israel. They settled there, built it up, established cities, agriculture, infrastructure, government, education, etc. (largely in portions of the land that were uninhabited or sparsely inhabited), obtained international recognition through established channels, and fought several wars to hold on to what they had built. If the Romani had done the same, yes, they’d have a country now and I’d support that.

But the Balfour Declaration and the UN after WWII essentially established a separate Jewish state correct? There were people, including Jewish people, living on this land since its inception however the people who immigrated here after the Holocaust were European correct? So again, like the Jewish Europeans, Romani Europeans also had no homeland to return to, and still don’t.

What? The Balfour declaration did not establish the state of Israel. It expressed general British support for the idea of Zionism. The UN did not recognize Israel until 1949, after the Jews had already built up the state and fought a war over it. And your last sentence is a complete non-sequitur. As far as I know, a big part of Romani history/culture/tradition is living a nomadic lifestyle. They have never had serious nationalist aspirations or taken any steps to establish a state (again, as far as I know). If they had, maybe they could have also gotten buy-in from the British or recognition from the UN. Again, I have no idea and it’s completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

As a neutral person in this argument, I view any European person whose ethnicity /creed/race was slaughtered in the Holocaust as victims and literally the only reason Europeans who identified as jewish were provided a safe haven in Isreal was because of religion.

Even assuming this is true (it’s not) you think it’s….a bad thing that Jews were provided safe haven? You’d rather they weren’t? I’m not getting your point here.

Every victim should have been provided a safe haven.

Ok no one is disagreeing with you there. What does that have to do with Israel? It shouldn’t exist because other victims were not also given a safe haven?

No it should exist but just admit it was founded on religious beliefs.

I don’t think anyone is denying that religion played a part. It’s literally a Jewish state lol. What people are objecting to is the idea that Jews founded a state there “because God told them they own it.” That’s one small part of the bigger picture. Maybe you missed my other post. It said:

43% of Jewish Israelis are completely secular. Early Zionist sentiment was predominantly secular, with many early Zionists identifying as socialist and atheist.

The Zionist movement didn’t arise because a bunch of Jews got together out of the blue and said “we own this land because God said so.” It came about because the rest of the world SLAUGHTERED HALF OF ALL JEWS IN A MASSIVE GENOCIDE. I don’t get how this is so completely lost on people. The people that founded the state of Israel had JUST experienced WWII. They had nowhere else to go - the US restricted immigration, they couldn’t go back to Europe for reasons that should be obvious. So they looked at Israel and said “hey, we have cultural/religious ties to this place, there’s no existing country here, the British who are in charge want us to have it, there’s already a Jewish community here…..this looks like our best bet.”

So to clarify, some magical thinking is involved here.

Where? Point it out specifically please. There are religious people in every society. I get it, you don’t like them and think they’re stupid.

Making Aliyah is logical?

Immigrating to Israel is illogical? Do you think it’s illogical to move to any other country or just Israel?

Immigrating as a born and bred American to my ‘homeland’ any is absurd for any reason, especially because God told me it’s my Holy Place, that goes for any place on earth or any religion. It’s nonsense.

Ok so don’t do it? No one is forcing you to. Do you go on threads where people talk about going to church and insult them too? What about Muslims making hajj? We get it, you’re an edgy atheist who’s smarter than religious people.

If you’ll only accept atheist points of view on Israel, listen to Sam Harris. He has plenty of intelligent things to say, genuinely.

Lol at thinking Sam Harris has anything worthwhile to say about Israel. This guy is a hypocritical, Islamophobic pseudointellect Zionist. Might as well ask Joseph Goebbels about his opinion on Nazi Germany.

[Anonymous]

If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

If you were in an interpersonal relationship with someone and they always referred to some person as a ‘soul mate’ they knew and supported and it clearly wasn’t you. They like you fine, you meet their basic needs, etc. but ultimately they are destined to return or marry this special magical person who most definitely is not you. They take you for granted because they know deep down that the grass isn’t greener necessarily and you will always be there to welcome them back with open arms. How would you feel?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

If you were in an interpersonal relationship with someone and they always referred to some person as a ‘soul mate’ they knew and supported and it clearly wasn’t you. They like you fine, you meet their basic needs, etc. but ultimately they are destined to return or marry this special magical person who most definitely is not you. They take you for granted because they know deep down that the grass isn’t greener necessarily and you will always be there to welcome them back with open arms. How would you feel?

This is some weird ass projection and deeply offensive to American Jews. Do better. Educate yourself. https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/dual-loyalty.

There are an estimated 10,000 American Jews currently serving in the US military. Approximately 550,000 Jews served in the US military during World War II. Jews have also served in significant numbers in other conflicts, including the Korean War (150,000) and Vietnam (30,000).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

If you were in an interpersonal relationship with someone and they always referred to some person as a ‘soul mate’ they knew and supported and it clearly wasn’t you. They like you fine, you meet their basic needs, etc. but ultimately they are destined to return or marry this special magical person who most definitely is not you. They take you for granted because they know deep down that the grass isn’t greener necessarily and you will always be there to welcome them back with open arms. How would you feel?

This is some weird ass projection and deeply offensive to American Jews. Do better. Educate yourself. https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/dual-loyalty.

There are an estimated 10,000 American Jews currently serving in the US military. Approximately 550,000 Jews served in the US military during World War II. Jews have also served in significant numbers in other conflicts, including the Korean War (150,000) and Vietnam (30,000).

Granted, yes not all American jewish share this sentiment but some do, as do other ethnicities, and maybe I am misunderstanding, but referring to another country as your homeland and singing the praises of that other country while living and reaping the benefits of the US seems half a$&ed, or disrespectful at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

First of all, I don’t know many American Jews that refer to Israel as their homeland. Second of all, among those that do - it is their figurative, RELIGIOUS homeland. Not their literal homeland. Otherwise they would be living there, not in America. It’s akin to Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca.

It is antisemitic to accuse American Jews, writ large, of harboring dual loyalties, which is exactly what you’re doing. It’s not like, a new brilliant idea you just thought of. It’s been around for generations:

“Simply referred to as the ‘dual loyalty’ charge, antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and vilify Jews”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

First of all, I don’t know many American Jews that refer to Israel as their homeland. Second of all, among those that do - it is their figurative, RELIGIOUS homeland. Not their literal homeland. Otherwise they would be living there, not in America. It’s akin to Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca.

It is antisemitic to accuse American Jews, writ large, of harboring dual loyalties, which is exactly what you’re doing. It’s not like, a new brilliant idea you just thought of. It’s been around for generations:

“Simply referred to as the ‘dual loyalty’ charge, antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and vilify Jews”

We come from different perspectives then because all my American Jewish acquaintances and friends consider Israel their homeland, while they love the US and are loyal citizens, their hearts belong to Israel always and that is very clear to me. It just feels like if you aren’t Jewish, you aren’t good enough or something, sadly this is my only homeland, and believe it or not I am proud of that. I just can’t relate to anyone claiming that a foreign country is their homeland, sorry if that’s antisemitic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If born and bred individuals simply consider themselves visitors here in the US and they a strong urge to immigrate anywhere, or strongly support another nation before our own, perhaps it’s time to leave. Similar to an interpersonal relationship, our hearts need to be all in or why bother? Go find your true love. America deserves better than citizens half a$$ing it.

Where are you getting this idea that American Jews have a strong urge to immigrate to Israel and consider themselves visitors in the US? That’s some antisemitic nonsense, frankly.

American Jews are by and large deeply patriotic. They have fought and died for this county. They have served in congress and on the Supreme Court and on the front lines of the fight for civil rights. They have contributed immeasurably to American culture - music, comedy, film, literature, science, academia. About four one hundredths of one percent of American Jews immigrate to Israel each year. Your obsession with those people is…….suspicious at best.

It’s antisemitic to state that Jewish people refer to Israel as their homeland? If Israel is their homeland, what does that make the US? The US is my homeland, I find it antiAmerican of you to criticize me for stating the truth.

First of all, I don’t know many American Jews that refer to Israel as their homeland. Second of all, among those that do - it is their figurative, RELIGIOUS homeland. Not their literal homeland. Otherwise they would be living there, not in America. It’s akin to Muslims praying in the direction of Mecca.

It is antisemitic to accuse American Jews, writ large, of harboring dual loyalties, which is exactly what you’re doing. It’s not like, a new brilliant idea you just thought of. It’s been around for generations:

“Simply referred to as the ‘dual loyalty’ charge, antisemites alleges that the true allegiance of Jews is to their fellow Jews and that therefore they are inherently disloyal citizens and cannot be trusted. In casting the Jew as the other, this antisemitic trope, which has existed for thousands of years, has been used to scapegoat, harass, and vilify Jews”

No, I feel like the other’ in my circle of Jewish acquaintances. I am accepted and even sort of liked by them but never will be equal to them, or on the same level or network or whatever.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

And...there it is. You're a loon. We can all see very well what has and is happening. We've seen the dead babies, the starving children. They are TARGETING civilians. It's Israel that fails to distinguish between the two. Either you know that, and you're a liar, or you're fully brainwashed and talking to you is a waste of breath.

I am not disputing that all of that is absolutely tragic. War is extremely ugly. Innocents always suffer, including innocent children. That doesn’t make it a genocide though. I haven’t seen any credible reports that definitively establish that Israel is deliberately targeting civilians. It is CERTAINLY not their stated goal.

Let me ask you, though - if you believe Israel is committing genocide because it intentionally targets civilians, do you also believe October 7 was genocide? Why or why not?

No, I don’t. Scale, for one. Effectiveness, for another. A one day attack, albeit with hostages, compared to a sustained multi-year campaign with tens of thousands of civilian deaths, with leaders of this campaign saying it will not stop until this nebulous goal of eradicating Hamas (which they make no effort to distinguish from civilian Palestinian citizens) is achieved. Acting like they are remotely the same is why people with your viewpoint are not to be taken seriously.

If what's happening in Palestine doesn't qualify as a genocide, what would qualify as a genocide? Many experts who study genocide have in fact said it does meet the definition. Why do you continue to deny it?

Rwanda.
Nazi Germany.

Genocide does not usually involve give the victims the ability to stop the genocide by surrendering.

We killed 10% of all Germans during WWII, was that a genocide? Of course not because we were at war and the Germans could stop it at any time by surrendering.
Are there war crimes being committed? Almost certainly. Every war has war crimes. There are plenty of war crimes to go around in this war.
Seriously, for every war crime you can name for the IDF, I can name a war crime for Hamas.
Beither side is playing it clean but Hamas started this.

War does not target civilians. They cannot surrender for Hamas anymore than I can prevent Trump from behaving recklessly. You're sick and I hope you burn.

People like you have hated people like me for thousands of years.
You only have sympathy for the people that started this war is because they are losing horribly.
They can surrender at any time. But instead of heaping scorn on hamas for starting all of this or pushing for hamas to surrender so all of this can stop, you insist that we either lose or quit.
This war will end when the Hamas leadership has surrendered, been tried and executed.

DP

Your raging belief in your own natural superiority above others, along with your astonishing track record of inability to coexist peacefully with literally anyone else, as ironically evidenced by your posts in this thread, are the reasons that some people have hated people like you for thousands of years.

Bigots like you justify their bigotry in all sorts of ways.
It's nothing new or novel.

We didn't invade anyone in 1948.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

This is all horrible and backwards, it’s barbaric. But it doesn’t answer the question as to why Jewish persons are fixated, obsessed with all things Israel simply because God told them so. Ultimately this is the reason for much of this controversy, the fact that God supposedly said this land belongs to people who identify as being Jewish. This fictional book was written thousands of years ago. This shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book shouldn’t be taken literally as no religious book should. I am not antizionist but rather anti religion period. This will never end because people continue to hold onto outdated rules and principles. Surely there’s another less controversial land mass Jewish persons could occupy? God doesn’t really care where you live.

Many Israelis are pretty secular.
They defend Israel because it is their country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

DP

I’ve not been part of this particular exchange, but the shoes you describe a Jewish student walking in at Columbia are exaggerated. And your “tale of the tape” is also obnoxiously one-sided in that it somehow fails to mention any of the hateful Zionist rhetoric, threats, and physical attacks that have also occurred on that campus over the past few years.

But what’s most appalling in your post is this …

The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead.

Have you literally no idea how ironic this comes across to those of us living in reality ? To those of us who are aware that what’s bolder above is PRECISELY the origin story of the State of Israel, albeit with the native, indigenous population dealing with that awful fate for the past 75 years?

I’m for an outcome that allows both Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace. Israel never should have been allowed to declare its independence because the world should never have allowed anyone to believe that safety can only be found in one already occupied strip of land. But the time to litigate that fact has passed, so the direction forward is to impose peaceful co-existence on both sides. If the U.S. can one day shed its clear and sustained bias in the matter, perhaps we can help lead both sides to that path.

Israel and Clinton offered a 2 state solution in 2000 and the PLO rejected it. They want all of it or none of it. Now 25 years later, they are awful close to getting none of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Antizionism is not antisemitism" I was out last night with a Jewish friend who quit her job at a university in 2023 - 24 due to the fear protests on her campus stirred up for her.

In talking to her last night, it suddenly clicked to me that some Jewish people view any protest against Israeli action as a call to eliminate Israel (antizionism). Some then connect antizionism to antisemitism because they are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence. Hence, to them, criticism of Israel (antizionism) is equivalent to killing/eliminating Jews.

It's a math problem where they simplify the equation from:

criticism of Israel = antizionism = antisemitism = death to Jews

to:

criticism of Israel = death to Jews

I wonder if the problem is the emphasis that Jewish practice and culture place on Israel as a geographic location. The Torah emphasizes the importance of Israel for Jewish existence and Rabbis in their sermons constantly refer to Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple, etc. And Passover is a holiday dedicated to memorializing the creation of Isreal as a fixed place, not just a concept or set of ideas/rules to live by.

Are other religions are as geographically tied to physical regions of the world? For example, while Catholics hold the Pope and Vatican holy, I don't think Priests in South American don't constantly tell their congregation tales about the glories of Italy? Or, while Hindus hold Varanasi and the Ganges holy (and many visit or want their ashes released there after death), I think the emphasis is on encouraging visiting but not resettling.

I can’t believe this person calls you a friend. This is some absurd minimizing/gaslighting BS. I’ll preface this by saying I don’t agree at all with what Trump is doing wrt universities, but please put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person on, say, the Columbia campus:

-Day after day after day for MONTHS you walk to class and hear protestors chant things like “globalize the intifada,” "Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!" “we are Hamas,” and “Jews go back to Europe/Poland"
-One of your Jewish professors has her office vandalized with swastikas: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/11/29/us/swastika-vandalism-columbia-university.
-Another professor, who is somehow STILL EMPLOYED by Columbia openly calls October 7 a "resistance offensive" and "awesome.”
-a Jewish student who places a mezuza (Jewish religious symbol) on her dorm's doorway is targeted for months, leading her to leave the dorm
-Another Jewish student is spat at for wearing a Jewish head covering
-Three DEANS of the university, again still employed, attend a panel ON ANTISEMITISM and exchange antisemitic text messages there, such as “Amazing what $$$$ can do'' in reference to an op-ed on antisemitism by a campus rabbi.
-Yet another professor says Israeli students should not be allowed on campus because they are dangerous.

It does not take three steps to get from any of the above to antisemitism. All of the above is blatantly antisemitic.
No Jew/Zionist I know (and I know many) thinks any and all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That is an idea constantly trotted out to silence Jews and minimize their legitimate concerns, like you are currently doing.

“They are convinced the existence of Israeli is fundamentally tied to their own existence.” Ma’am, seven million Jews, half the world’s Jewish population, DOES IN FACT live in Israel. The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead. That’s not like, a conspiracy theory your “friend” cooked up in her head. JFC.

DP

I’ve not been part of this particular exchange, but the shoes you describe a Jewish student walking in at Columbia are exaggerated. And your “tale of the tape” is also obnoxiously one-sided in that it somehow fails to mention any of the hateful Zionist rhetoric, threats, and physical attacks that have also occurred on that campus over the past few years.

But what’s most appalling in your post is this …

The destruction of the state would result in a lot of those Jews ending up refugees or dead.

Have you literally no idea how ironic this comes across to those of us living in reality ? To those of us who are aware that what’s bolder above is PRECISELY the origin story of the State of Israel, albeit with the native, indigenous population dealing with that awful fate for the past 75 years?

I’m for an outcome that allows both Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace. Israel never should have been allowed to declare its independence because the world should never have allowed anyone to believe that safety can only be found in one already occupied strip of land. But the time to litigate that fact has passed, so the direction forward is to impose peaceful co-existence on both sides. If the U.S. can one day shed its clear and sustained bias in the matter, perhaps we can help lead both sides to that path.

Oh please. Spare me. “the shoes you describe a Jewish student walking in at Columbia are exaggerated.” Ok, what’s your evidence for that? All of the incidents I mentioned are well-documented, many on video.

“fails to mention any of the hateful Zionist rhetoric, threats, and physical attacks that have also occurred on that campus.” Ok, what’s your evidence for that? Literally anyone with eyes can see that, even if there are isolated examples of this, they don’t rise to anywhere NEAR what the encampments have unleashed on Jewish students.

“Have you literally no idea how ironic this comes across to those of us living in reality ? To those of us who are aware that what’s bolder above is PRECISELY the origin story of the State of Israel …” Let’s forget for a moment that Palestinians were not the only ones killed/displaced (roughly the same number of Jews, 800,000, were expelled from middle eastern countries. My parents included). Palestinians were killed/made refugees in 1948 so Jews should be killed/made refugees now? You would mock someone for not wanting that outcome?

I agree with you that peaceful co-existence is the only way forward, so at least there’s that.

DP

I disagree. When one side is dedicated to the destruction of the other, peace is not an option over the long run.