TJ admissions change from Merit to Essay impact to Asian American Students

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

Sadly, not at all BS. My family member who is a math professor says he sees this frequently. It is not at all unusual for kids who have taken advanced math classes at an early age to be able to get the answers right but not really have a firm understanding of the reasons why the answers are right.

This is what the math dept at our neighborhood HS said as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

If there are kids who can come up with the correct answers on a placement test without having an understanding of what they're doing, then the test is a bad test. The answer is to write better placement tests that won't allow kids to just blindly follow algorithms and will give logical but novel extensions to the material taught in class.. It isn't to hold kids back or disregard math level of applicants for elite STEM programs. If a kid can earn a very high score on the final exams given at AoPS academy, I'm pretty sure that kid fully understands the content.

Again, I'd argue that the highly accelerated kids fall into one of 3 camps:
1. They're highly gifted in math (no need to be a math prodigy),
2. They're bright and have a very solid foundation thanks to AoPS, RSM, or the like, and
3. They're overaccelerated by their parents.

So, write tests to detect the #3 kids. I have no doubt that the TJ teachers could write a "final exam" for each of Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and pre-calc that could be used in admissions to identify the overaccelerated kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

[Anonymous]

Pease Stop.

A kid half interested in math can finish Geo in 8th grade. Only in this county, thousand of kids can do it means nothing exceptional here. In mostly, the accelerations are recommended by FCPS' teachers themselves. Other kids can comfortably go quickly. Look at other states and other countries. Math teaching here is too easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

There is literally zero documentation of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

Yes, it was well covered even here, https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/912482.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

Yes, it was well covered even here, https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/912482.page

So you can’t cite an actual news article about this cheating scandal that was supposedly in all of the papers at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

Yes, it was well covered even here, https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/912482.page

So you can’t cite an actual news article about this cheating scandal that was supposedly in all of the papers at the time.

Wrong, this was covered by several local news outlets that are cited in that thread along with the testimony of many parents who had direct experience with this matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

Yes, it was well covered even here, https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/912482.page

So you can’t cite an actual news article about this cheating scandal that was supposedly in all of the papers at the time.

Wrong, this was covered by several local news outlets that are cited in that thread along with the testimony of many parents who had direct experience with this matter.

So cite them here. It shouldn't be too hard to produce a link to a real news article. I requested a real news article. You provided a link to a 28 page blog thread filled with opinions and hearsay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.

3. You also failed to address the point about TJ placement tests. If a kid has been overaccelerated, but lacks proper foundation, wouldn't that kid place into a lower level class at TJ?

You are also arguing with more than one person.

There is no need to argue about placement tests. The point being made here is that some kids who have been advanced too quickly are perfectly capable of coming up with the right answers on a test, so they would easily pass any placement test. It is when they are discussing the subject in class that it becomes clear to the teachers that they don’t really have an understanding of what they are doing, they just know how to get the right answer.

Unless someone is an actual math prodigy, which very few people are, there is a certain level of mental maturity required to really understand more advanced math concepts. Younger children can be taught how to get correct answers, but the deeper understanding takes a maturity level that they are still in the process of acquiring.

TJ math teachers have been seeing this effect for years among students who are advanced in math, but not math prodigies. They will sometimes discuss with the parents the idea of a child retaking a level to really strengthen the student’s understanding, but often the parent will not hear of it and will want their child to continue to more and more advanced classes, even if the child is struggling. The parents often think that getting a tutor will help, when really all the student needs is a little more time and the growth in maturity that comes with time.

How did kids who doesn't have a good math foundation get good enough GPAs to be accepted by TJ? Also, if accelerated math is not good as you claim, why keep the Alg 1 requirement then? In fact, why don't they take only applicants at the grade level?

People call your claims BS because they are based on literally nothing.

Many of those kids only got in by purchasing access to the entrance exam. The cheating was well documented.

It was in all the papers at the time and has been covered here repeatedly. The county had to change the selection process even to put an end to the cheating, but the unexpected positive thing that came out of it was that TJ is now a much less toxic environment without those kids and their crazy families.

Then surely you can cite an article from a reputable news source.

Yes, it was well covered even here, https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/912482.page

Heh. Even in this thread from years ago, people were asking for actual evidence, and no one was able to provide it. It's hilarious that you would even imagine that a dcum thread would suffice as evidence that something happened.