TJ admissions change from Merit to Essay impact to Asian American Students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?
Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1200+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.
discriminatory TJ admission policy

Unfair and illegal.

Lower income Asian students were the biggest by beneficiaries of the new process.
- Judges who ruled it was not illegal

And they become the most discriminated against group the moment they get off the free school lunches

There is zero discrimination.

Thank you for your opinion, Tucker!

Not my opinion. That was the court ruling.

Courts also ruled that it was legal to take away homes and land from Native Americans.

Take it up with the conservative SCOTUS.

It’s hard to make the case for “discrimination” when you look at the numbers.

There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

They still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.

And they are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).

Well, the new process discriminates against wealthier schools where families could previously buy the test answers.

Affluence isn’t a protected class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?
Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1200+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.
discriminatory TJ admission policy

Unfair and illegal.

Lower income Asian students were the biggest by beneficiaries of the new process.
- Judges who ruled it was not illegal

And they become the most discriminated against group the moment they get off the free school lunches

There is zero discrimination.

Thank you for your opinion, Tucker!

Not my opinion. That was the court ruling.

Courts also ruled that it was legal to take away homes and land from Native Americans.

Take it up with the conservative SCOTUS.

It’s hard to make the case for “discrimination” when you look at the numbers.

There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

They still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.

And they are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).

Well, the new process discriminates against wealthier schools where families could previously buy the test answers.

Affluence isn’t a protected class.

Is it fun responding to yourself? 😆

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?
Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1200+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.
discriminatory TJ admission policy

Unfair and illegal.

Lower income Asian students were the biggest by beneficiaries of the new process.
- Judges who ruled it was not illegal

And they become the most discriminated against group the moment they get off the free school lunches

There is zero discrimination.

Thank you for your opinion, Tucker!

Not my opinion. That was the court ruling.

Courts also ruled that it was legal to take away homes and land from Native Americans.

Take it up with the conservative SCOTUS.

It’s hard to make the case for “discrimination” when you look at the numbers.

There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.

They still make up the majority of students. More than all other groups, combined.

And they are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25).

Well, the new process discriminates against wealthier schools where families could previously buy the test answers.

Affluence isn’t a protected class.

Is it fun responding to yourself? 😆

Is it fun to confuse posters? Seems like you enjoy doing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Asian count remains more or less same, but the Asian percent has gone down?
Along with the admissions change, the total number of seats were expanded by 100 seats, but Asian students were solely excluded from participating in the expanded seat assignment. There are consistently 1200+ declined Asian applicants each year, largest among all ethnicities, and none of them are allowed to receive a single seat from the expanded seat quota.
discriminatory TJ admission policy

Unfair and illegal.

Lower income Asian students were the biggest by beneficiaries of the new process.
- Judges who ruled it was not illegal

And they become the most discriminated against group the moment they get off the free school lunches

There is zero discrimination.

Thank you for your opinion, Tucker!

Not my opinion. That was the court ruling.

Courts also ruled that it was legal to take away homes and land from Native Americans.

That why there is a place for you to come here & stay!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

Same test buying troll lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

They probably would benefit less from a strong cohort at TJ than less privileged student and also do fine at their home school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

Don’t bother that “test buying” “teachers said” troll. Somehow, they think people would be convinced that wrong answers are better, laying back is the key to success, and mediocrity should be champions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

A bird told me that you are full of S

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

A bird told me that you are full of S

I get it. It bothers you to hear anything that doesn’t fit in with what you prefer to believe. Do you not remember what happened with the math teachers at TJ in 2011?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

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Anonymous wrote:The NYT put together an interesting article that describes what FCPS did with the TJ admissions.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/09/upshot/affirmative-action-alternatives.html

It's behind a paywall but TLDR they made it so students from any school not just the wealthiest could access TJ.

Great- that’s as it should be. A public school needs to be available to all through a fair process in which wealth or education level of parents is not determinative.

I agree. I think the changes were a small step in the right direction, but I wish they'd do more. Upping the 1.5% to more like 2.5% to allow even broader opportunity while setting some baseline standards like requiring A's in Algebra seems modest. Most students will have completed Geometry or higher by 8th so this is a fairly low bar.

Yes, this move is worth considering.

I do think that part of the problem is that people who did not have parents with lower incomes and only a high school education, if that, simply can’t understand what it’s like to grow up in that kind of family situation.

I did grow up like that, so I get it. And the lower family income is not the worst of it, it’s that less educated parents simply don’t know what they don’t know. They can be trying their best, but frequently they just have no idea what to do to help a very bright child. My parents did try, but they were simply unaware of the resources that were out there.

I “lucked out” because I qualified for a national program as a junior in high school. Suddenly, the teachers and guidance counselors, who all seemed quite surprised that a kid like me would qualify for this program, became very interested in helping me with college applications. Even without that, I was still way behind in the types of opportunities that other kids had been provided with all through their school years.

This is why I care so much about TJ being a possibility for kids from less well-off and educated family situations: I want those kids to have opportunities that they might not otherwise be able to access.

Great. Now if you can only get them to study like a TJ student.

What is the point of being educated if that person is cold, has no compassion, no comment sense - like you?

Well, obviously the system that prioritized you has not educated you enough to have some compassion for children who were treated unfairly and a common sense that "stealing opportunities from more deserving people is a bad thing"

I’m not exactly sure what it is you’re trying to say here, but do you understand that kids with well off and educated parents will always have more opportunities than kids without those advantages?

You appear to be one of the people alluded to above who can’t understand what life is like for people whose lives are different from yours.

I am talking as an immigrant living under the poverty line for many years. You obviously can't understand those who, not like you, were treated unfairly by the system. Very far from your senseless generalization, many kids who have been rejected by the system are not from "well off" families. Many have just reached the middle-income status very recently. The only difference is they have been taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families. That's why they study and perform rather than expecting handouts from the system.

So, if your children have parents who are lower income and less educated, what is your problem with the application process? It’s giving your child(ren) the same chance as other children from similar families.

It sounds as though you agree that applicants should all be treated fairly, with no advantage to kids whose families have more money and better educated parents than others.

At the same time, you appear to be saying that applicants from families with less well off and less well educated parents somehow are not “taught the value of hard work and understand the sacrifices of their families.” What’s that all about? As someone who is from a family with parents with lower income and no college education, I can tell you that lower income people are among the hardest workers there are, and their kids see that from an early age. Again, you seem to have very little understanding of people who have different experiences than you have had.

But lower math algebra 1 students from worst fcps middle schools are being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose and level up to the advanced peers from top middle schools. How is that not inhumane mental abuse of innocent students?

You are making up problems here with the phrase “being forced to drink from the TJ rigor fire hose.” Come on, that is a highly exaggerated metaphor.

And the truth is, many of those “advanced” peers do not have a good grasp of the fundamentals because they rushed through math couses too quickly to develop a truly strong understanding. Two different TJ math teachers, one in 2011 and one in 2014, told me about this problem, so well before the changes in the application process.

There is no “inhumane mental abuse of innocent students” going on here by giving students a fair shot at the limited places available at TJ, regardless of the income or educational level of their parents. Seriously.

Sorry. I must call this BS

It is BS. Of the 210 FCPS 8th graders who took the Algebra II SOL in 2022-2023, all passed and around 90% of the kids got pass advanced. All evidence suggests that the advanced kids have a good grasp of the fundamentals and are quite successful.

Being able to answer questions correctly is not the same as have a strong grasp of fundamentals. The teachers can tell the difference.

What evidence do you have that these kids do not have a strong grasp of fundamentals? I'm sure *some* kids are overaccelerated by their parents and don't have solid mastery of the fundamentals. I'm also sure that many kids who are accelerated are just very smart at math and have already grasped everything that they need to know. And many others have taken courses at AoPS that are much more rigorous than anything taught by FCPS.

If overacceleration is a real concern for TJ, they could always administer some sort of placement test as part of the application package.

My “evidence” is that two different math teachers at TJ told me the same thing several years apart and before any changes had been made to the application process. Never said all students, just some/many. Apparently they would try to have conversations with parents of kids who were too far advanced, but many, not all, were not receptive to their input. There was a lot of discussion about this at TJ in 2011.

But this doesn't make sense. TJ has for a long time administered placement tests for their incoming students. If a kid was overaccelerated and lacked proper foundations, wouldn't the kid place into a lower level?

The TJ teachers are also likely confusing 'overacceleration' with 'shoddy middle school teaching.' FCPS gatekeeps enough that the kids allowed to take Algebra earlier than 8th are generally ready. If they're coming into TJ with poor foundations, the solution is for FCPS to reverse the trend of watering down the grades and instruction for high school classes taught in middle school. If the 7th grader in Algebra I has a B level of understanding, then let the kid get a B.

Think what you want, because obviously any evidence to the contrary doesn’t affect your beliefs.

TJ teachers know what they see in the classroom. Just because you, as a random person writing on the internet doesn’t believe it doesn’t make it not so. The truth will continue to exist whether you believe it or not.

1. You're arguing with at least two different people.
2. I asked for evidence to the contrary. You have yet to provide any. The only pertinent evidence in this thread is that almost all of the kids taking Algebra II in 8th get pass advanced on the SOL. Everything else presented in this thread has been a mix of anecdotes and hearsay.