Black student experience at Maury

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I lived on Capitol Hill and had a black child, I would sooner send them to Friendship Chamberlain (where 3+ CAPE proficiency is 73% in both math and ELA for black students) than Maury, where it's 54 and 66%, respectively. The numbers at 4+ are even more pronounced: 46/56 at FC and 22/38 at Maury.

Since FC is 96% black and 59% at risk, there are a lot more non-at-risk black families there than at Maury (which is 20% black and 18% at risk). I'd rather go through 8th grade at Chamberlain than do Eliot-Hine, too.

This is a very smart analysis. I think it’s probably mostly accurate. I’d be very eagle eyed and sharp eared to make sure things were going well, but it’s a good thought.

The idea that a Jack & Jill mom is going to send her kids to Friendship PCS is just funny to me.

Same. It has to be the same person insinuating black people don’t care if a potential mayor sends their kids to private school.

Like great schools fail black kids that aren’t at risk or have a high needs disability.

I would never send my child to Friendship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the worst part of being a POC in the Maury zone is having white women tell you the best middle and high school for your kids. I didn’t ask your opinion and I’m more than capable of choosing the appropriate school for my kids. Just because you decided to have your kid attend Eliot Hine and Eastern doesn’t mean that I need to make the same choice.

Did you ever think that maybe they were awkwardly trying to be inclusive of you? And hoping a cohort would stick together?

When you say you are leaving the shared space, it can feel like a judgment that the shared space was harmful for your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

Peer effect matter, Fryer has a bunch of papers on this https://www.educationnext.org/acting-white/

[Anonymous]

( that’s not the original article but it’s a nice critical commentary)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

[Anonymous]

Maury is heavily IB. If you live IB and are joining in a relatively younger grade, it will be good/fine. If you are talking about joining as an oob lottery student in upper elementary, its a slightly different analysis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

The question wasn’t if they see ethnicity, it was if there’s other ‘smart’ kids of the same ethnicity. No, that does not matter as long as there are plenty of examples of ‘smart’ people of their ethnicity.

Ps. We are all the same race, unless you are a decently smart ape?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

The question wasn’t if they see ethnicity, it was if there’s other ‘smart’ kids of the same ethnicity. No, that does not matter as long as there are plenty of examples of ‘smart’ people of their ethnicity.

Ps. We are all the same race, unless you are a decently smart ape?

Huh? Peer effects are extremely important and sizable (that’s Fryer’s JPubE), the teacher/mentor effects are empirically pretty small and underpowered. I think the mentor effect paper is probably “true” they just need better power, but “who” is smart really does matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

The question wasn’t if they see ethnicity, it was if there’s other ‘smart’ kids of the same ethnicity. No, that does not matter as long as there are plenty of examples of ‘smart’ people of their ethnicity.

Ps. We are all the same race, unless you are a decently smart ape?

Huh? Peer effects are extremely important and sizable (that’s Fryer’s JPubE), the teacher/mentor effects are empirically pretty small and underpowered. I think the mentor effect paper is probably “true” they just need better power, but “who” is smart really does matter.

The research actually backs up what I said pretty well. The whole framework around this comes from Claude Steele and Joshua. What they found is that the real problem is identity safety, meaning a child needs to believe that someone like them can succeed in a given domain. That belief comes from visible successful adults way more than it comes from a classmate sitting next to them.

The strongest study people love to cite for race matching in schools is Thomas Dee's "Teachers, Race, and Student Achievement in a Randomized Experiment.”And here is the thing about that study: it is about TEACHERS. Not peers. Not classmates.

The research on stereotype threat also specifically notes that providing role models who demonstrate proficiency reduces or eliminates the threat effect entirely (Blanton, Crocker and Miller, 2000). It does not say those role models have to be peers.

The important thing is seeing someone like you succeed, and a thriving adult makes that case a lot more powerfully than a fellow 10 year old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

The question wasn’t if they see ethnicity, it was if there’s other ‘smart’ kids of the same ethnicity. No, that does not matter as long as there are plenty of examples of ‘smart’ people of their ethnicity.

Ps. We are all the same race, unless you are a decently smart ape?

Huh? Peer effects are extremely important and sizable (that’s Fryer’s JPubE), the teacher/mentor effects are empirically pretty small and underpowered. I think the mentor effect paper is probably “true” they just need better power, but “who” is smart really does matter.

The research actually backs up what I said pretty well. The whole framework around this comes from Claude Steele and Joshua. What they found is that the real problem is identity safety, meaning a child needs to believe that someone like them can succeed in a given domain. That belief comes from visible successful adults way more than it comes from a classmate sitting next to them.

The strongest study people love to cite for race matching in schools is Thomas Dee's "Teachers, Race, and Student Achievement in a Randomized Experiment.”And here is the thing about that study: it is about TEACHERS. Not peers. Not classmates.

The research on stereotype threat also specifically notes that providing role models who demonstrate proficiency reduces or eliminates the threat effect entirely (Blanton, Crocker and Miller, 2000). It does not say those role models have to be peers.

The important thing is seeing someone like you succeed, and a thriving adult makes that case a lot more powerfully than a fellow 10 year old.

Stereotype threat is p hacked to hell. It’s not real, and it’ll disappear from the literature over the next decade. Classic bad social psychology from the early times.
The teacher effect paper is real, but when you only have 4 clusters, the effect is not robust. Note it ended up in a pretty weak journal because it couldn’t survive robustness checks at higher tier journals.

The peer effect literature is recent, strong, has a very good theory behind it, and most importantly replicates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the worst part of being a POC in the Maury zone is having white women tell you the best middle and high school for your kids. I didn’t ask your opinion and I’m more than capable of choosing the appropriate school for my kids. Just because you decided to have your kid attend Eliot Hine and Eastern doesn’t mean that I need to make the same choice.

Did you ever think that maybe they were awkwardly trying to be inclusive of you? And hoping a cohort would stick together?

When you say you are leaving the shared space, it can feel like a judgment that the shared space was harmful for your child.

No. They were not being inclusive. This individual doesn’t have kids that are the same age as my children. She never bothered to even say hello to me or be nice to my children. At one of our first conversations she launched into me about the importance of sending my kids to Eastern. I note that her daughter goes to SWW now. But it was really important for “diversity” to have our family attend Eliot and Eastern.

I never once mentioned that we were thinking of leaving Maury and transferring to a charter school. This woman just launched into her lecture without prompting. You should know she’s not the only one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, you're going to have a bunch of non-Black people responding to what they think the experiences of Black students are.

This feels potentially true (white Maury parent here). Hope we are wrong though and you get helpful answers. In case not and in case helpful, my kid in 5th has a diverse friend group and when I see them interact in their peer group it all seems focused on their common interests, senses of humor, etc. From what I can see, their experience isn't an outlier. The teaching staff is also diverse. And I'm not sure about going on to Eliot Hine MS but almost all the kids in my kid's class are going there. Hope parents with direct experiences respond and this helps bump up your question!

Is this really true? My kid is in 5th grade at a very similar school in many respects and I am actually struck by how racially divided friend groups are — AA and white/otherr. There are a few UMC Black kids who straddle both groups and who also have their own little social group, but otherwise it is pretty divided along racial and economic lines. Now it’s a friendly school and all of the kids seem to get along fine. There are plenty of mixed race bigger parties. But smaller parties/sleepovers? Pretty divided.

I find it really noticeable because I went to a diverse school growing up, but where race and economics were not so linked and there was not similar racial separation. Because the UMC Black kids are part of both groups, I think it’s SES/class primarily driving it, but it’s apparent.

Anyway, genuinely curious if this is less true at Maury?

The UMC black kids are performing a complex dance of social calibration, the sort of which becomes exhausting and ultimately futile. Life is much easier where there is easy, consistent overlap between your racial and SES group. For UMC blacks, this is never the case in DC public schools — almost universally true for white folks. Social straddling of the sort required by UMC black kids in such environments is just a necessary chore.

Shepherd, Banneker, Duke Ellington?

Charter schools. Dcps doesn’t actually teach black or brown students.

OP Here. Pouring through the minutia of data, i’ve noticed the same across various schools.. it’s really really odd.. I wouldnt put the schools listed in that category though.

Are you looking at test scores? The problem is that race is used as a proxy for SES/highly educated but you need to dig a little deeper. So while for example you can see that white kids at EH do just as well if not better as compared to Deal etc, you can also see that the total percentage of high scores is often greater than the percentage of white kids. Or another way to see it is that at EH your kid is likely (with your oversight) going to do just as well as high SES white kids because you are going to get them into algebra in 7th, monitor their homework, etc. now there may be other reasons you prefer other schools but I truly think you can expect your kid to do just as well.

A black kid might score well. Their parents might expect the child to score well. But will the teachers and administration expect the child to score well? Will he have any same race classmates who are scoring well?

Curious how this factors?

It doesn’t. This person is so clearly not a teacher. It is more important for a child to see successful black adults. And often the children don’t even share their scores with each other.

You don’t think peer groups matter? You don’t think being the only MC non white kid in a class matters? Of course it does. Stop acting like kids don’t see race.

The question wasn’t if they see ethnicity, it was if there’s other ‘smart’ kids of the same ethnicity. No, that does not matter as long as there are plenty of examples of ‘smart’ people of their ethnicity.

Ps. We are all the same race, unless you are a decently smart ape?

Huh? Peer effects are extremely important and sizable (that’s Fryer’s JPubE), the teacher/mentor effects are empirically pretty small and underpowered. I think the mentor effect paper is probably “true” they just need better power, but “who” is smart really does matter.

The research actually backs up what I said pretty well. The whole framework around this comes from Claude Steele and Joshua. What they found is that the real problem is identity safety, meaning a child needs to believe that someone like them can succeed in a given domain. That belief comes from visible successful adults way more than it comes from a classmate sitting next to them.

The strongest study people love to cite for race matching in schools is Thomas Dee's "Teachers, Race, and Student Achievement in a Randomized Experiment.”And here is the thing about that study: it is about TEACHERS. Not peers. Not classmates.

The research on stereotype threat also specifically notes that providing role models who demonstrate proficiency reduces or eliminates the threat effect entirely (Blanton, Crocker and Miller, 2000). It does not say those role models have to be peers.

The important thing is seeing someone like you succeed, and a thriving adult makes that case a lot more powerfully than a fellow 10 year old.

Stereotype threat is p hacked to hell. It’s not real, and it’ll disappear from the literature over the next decade. Classic bad social psychology from the early times.
The teacher effect paper is real, but when you only have 4 clusters, the effect is not robust. Note it ended up in a pretty weak journal because it couldn’t survive robustness checks at higher tier journals.

The peer effect literature is recent, strong, has a very good theory behind it, and most importantly replicates.

Fair point on stereotype threat, I’ll give you that one.

But the peer effects literature you’re citing actually undercuts your own argument when you look closely. The well-replicated finding is that high-achieving peers help students generally. When you control for peer achievement level, the race component mostly disappears. “Peers’ race, ethnicity, income, and parental education have at most very little effect on students’ performance after accounting for peers’ achievement” (Hoxby and Weingarth 2023).

So the effect you’re pointing to is about being around high achievers, not same-race high achievers.