Is dual enrollment the new path to getting into a good college?

[Anonymous]

Where I live in the northeast, AP classes are considered to have very low standards, especially if taught at a public school. Pretty much a joke.

Dual enrollment through elite private schools is the rigorous path to take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in CA now and my son has taken 12 dual enrollment classes and 5 AP classes. There has not been one community college class that is anywhere remotely close to the rigor of a well taught AP course or even an honors class at his upper middle class, competitive high school with the exception of a dual enrollment math class and chemistry class.

I think all colleges realize the rigor is not the same. However, public 4 year colleges love dual enrollment because kids can graduate faster and/or not have to take as many lower division units and/ir not as many units per quarter/semester. My son took 12-13 units every quarter instead of 15 freshman year at his UC.

That’s very strange, basically you’re saying he only got 10 credits for all 12 courses taken, and generally that’s the math and chemistry class alone.

Every community college class is labeled in the catalogue if transferable to UC or CS. The 12 classes should have been equivalent to about 50-60 credits, almost one year worth of classes. Unless they were hobby classes like dance, sports etc, and it that case it’s not warranted to complain about their rigor.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the 10 credits. He did get around 39-40 credits for the Dual Enrollment classes plus more credits for the AP classes. At his UC they do NOT accept Ap credit for General Elective classes but they do accept dual enrollment classes. A lot of his friends are taking classes this summer because they did not get into all their lower division classes that they needed that are really popular like the first semester of chemistry or biology the first or second quarter. So now they are behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in CA now and my son has taken 12 dual enrollment classes and 5 AP classes. There has not been one community college class that is anywhere remotely close to the rigor of a well taught AP course or even an honors class at his upper middle class, competitive high school with the exception of a dual enrollment math class and chemistry class.

I think all colleges realize the rigor is not the same. However, public 4 year colleges love dual enrollment because kids can graduate faster and/or not have to take as many lower division units and/ir not as many units per quarter/semester. My son took 12-13 units every quarter instead of 15 freshman year at his UC.

That’s very strange, basically you’re saying he only got 10 credits for all 12 courses taken, and generally that’s the math and chemistry class alone.

Every community college class is labeled in the catalogue if transferable to UC or CS. The 12 classes should have been equivalent to about 50-60 credits, almost one year worth of classes. Unless they were hobby classes like dance, sports etc, and it that case it’s not warranted to complain about their rigor.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the 10 credits. He did get around 39-40 credits for the Dual Enrollment classes plus more credits for the AP classes. At his UC they do NOT accept Ap credit for General Elective classes but they do accept dual enrollment classes. A lot of his friends are taking classes this summer because they did not get into all their lower division classes that they needed that are really popular like the first semester of chemistry or biology the first or second quarter. So now they are behind.

I’m sorry but you’re confusing in your explanation. On one hand you say he had 40 credits, on the other hand you say he only got to do 12-13 credits per quarter instead of 15 in the first year, so that implies he has 6-9 credits from his DE courses. I’m curious to what classes he took, 12 DE classes with UC credit is a lot of work.

[Anonymous]

The AP curriculum is designed to be taught at public high schools across the country so it naturally has low standards so it can exist at average and below average high schools. It is quite a low bar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in CA now and my son has taken 12 dual enrollment classes and 5 AP classes. There has not been one community college class that is anywhere remotely close to the rigor of a well taught AP course or even an honors class at his upper middle class, competitive high school with the exception of a dual enrollment math class and chemistry class.

I think all colleges realize the rigor is not the same. However, public 4 year colleges love dual enrollment because kids can graduate faster and/or not have to take as many lower division units and/ir not as many units per quarter/semester. My son took 12-13 units every quarter instead of 15 freshman year at his UC.

That’s very strange, basically you’re saying he only got 10 credits for all 12 courses taken, and generally that’s the math and chemistry class alone.

Every community college class is labeled in the catalogue if transferable to UC or CS. The 12 classes should have been equivalent to about 50-60 credits, almost one year worth of classes. Unless they were hobby classes like dance, sports etc, and it that case it’s not warranted to complain about their rigor.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the 10 credits. He did get around 39-40 credits for the Dual Enrollment classes plus more credits for the AP classes. At his UC they do NOT accept Ap credit for General Elective classes but they do accept dual enrollment classes. A lot of his friends are taking classes this summer because they did not get into all their lower division classes that they needed that are really popular like the first semester of chemistry or biology the first or second quarter. So now they are behind.

What are you complaining about regarding the dual enrollment credits? Your kid got about one year worth of credits!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, in fact I think it’s the opposite. My district in the Northeast doesn’t offer dual enrollment at all but plenty of APs. From the articles I’ve read, the goal of expanding dual enrollment programs is to get students to graduate high school with some community college credits so they are more likely to enroll in college and complete a degree.

In some states it’s also marketed as a way to save money and graduate in only 3 or 3.5 years. Not every college will accept those credits, though. This is most likely to work if you transfer them to a state university in the same state the student graduated high school in.

same as our area of the midatlantic. DE is seen as much lower quality in all our area public schools. The only exception is DE multivariable calc, calc-based physics(AP phys C equivalent, we only have AP phys 1 and 2), Diff EQ. These are not offered at our district high schools so DE is the only way. They take these classes senior year after maxing out on AP. DE in place of Calc AB or BC is where the good but not great kids are tracked after honors precalculus, if it does not go as well. Top kids track to AP Calc BC as seniors or even juniors. UVA and VT and WM never take non-AP/full DE-program kids from our district.

DE is seen as lower quality by whom, snobby parents? What you’re saying makes zero sense. Multivariable and Differential Equations are considered rigorous, but not Calculus 1 and 2, who are often taught by the same instructors? I’d rather take a class taught by a math PhD, that also teaches 3-4 other high level math classes, than the high school teacher with a BS in Biology and an MFA in Education for her credential that just tells everyone to memorize some stuff to write on the AP exam (true story).

[Anonymous]

I think it depends why you are dual enrolling and what classes are being taken. My DD will have taken AP eng lang and AP lit by end of junior yr. There are no other AP English courses offered. Another example, her school doesn’t offer an AP French, or AP latin, (or AP in any language other than Spanish). So if you want 4 yrs of foreign language, you need to dual enroll for the 4th year. Math only goes through calc BC so same story if you take that early in high school

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

For most kids, testing out of lower level courses is UNhelpful when the lower level ones will provide a safety net with some familiar material for high academic schools for rising freshman of schools that grade deflate.

So yes, the downside is if you already know some of the courses you are taking won't change anything whether you do well on a few AP exams your senior year. Example: your kid can take the AP x-language exam and test out of lower level foreign language courses OR can decide early on in senior HS year that it probably makes the most sense to take the lower level foreign foreign language requirements while adjusting to college. So in this case, there is a downside to taking yet another exam (stress, wasted time, etc.), esp if you're over a limit of AP exams where your family pays for them over a certain amount.

Most of the cases I know are students that were not well prepared and chickened out of taking the exam. They still had a hard time in the college class.

You can take the AP exam AND choose to not use the AP as prerequisite and repeat the course. Very few students that know the material do that, but of course if you’re on shaky ground it’s better to repeat. There are plenty of easy classes at a university if you’re worried about grade deflation, and most of them are more fun, interesting and helpful for a future career than repeating Calculus AB.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Going back to my foreign language requirement, at a school that requires foreign language, my proposal is a great pathway. You're just assuming this is for classes you can leapfrog over and instead focus on more fun classes. Do you even have a child in a high stats college?

I don’t cause he’s in sixth grade, but I went to a “high stats college”.

Your example with a foreign language is dumb. Be more specific and you’ll see how idiotic it is. What major, what college, what AP?

If you’re talking about a foreign language requirement for graduation, then any AP is good and you’re done and free to focus on electives that actually interest you and may have lenient grading.

What you’re saying is don’t take the AP exam, even if you’d ace it, because it’s stressful and instead take it easy in the first year with Mandarin 101, because the kid is a native speaker and that’s a guaranteed A. All that at a “high stats” university. I don’t think so.

No, I am not saying that. As I guessed, you have no idea what you’re talking about but spouting info to others like you do. Unless you graduated from that high stats school in the last (very) few years, your experience isn’t relevant.

In 6 years when your kid is off to college, then you should be answering questions like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

For most kids, testing out of lower level courses is UNhelpful when the lower level ones will provide a safety net with some familiar material for high academic schools for rising freshman of schools that grade deflate.

So yes, the downside is if you already know some of the courses you are taking won't change anything whether you do well on a few AP exams your senior year. Example: your kid can take the AP x-language exam and test out of lower level foreign language courses OR can decide early on in senior HS year that it probably makes the most sense to take the lower level foreign foreign language requirements while adjusting to college. So in this case, there is a downside to taking yet another exam (stress, wasted time, etc.), esp if you're over a limit of AP exams where your family pays for them over a certain amount.

Most of the cases I know are students that were not well prepared and chickened out of taking the exam. They still had a hard time in the college class.

You can take the AP exam AND choose to not use the AP as prerequisite and repeat the course. Very few students that know the material do that, but of course if you’re on shaky ground it’s better to repeat. There are plenty of easy classes at a university if you’re worried about grade deflation, and most of them are more fun, interesting and helpful for a future career than repeating Calculus AB.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Going back to my foreign language requirement, at a school that requires foreign language, my proposal is a great pathway. You're just assuming this is for classes you can leapfrog over and instead focus on more fun classes. Do you even have a child in a high stats college?

I don’t cause he’s in sixth grade, but I went to a “high stats college”.

Your example with a foreign language is dumb. Be more specific and you’ll see how idiotic it is. What major, what college, what AP?

If you’re talking about a foreign language requirement for graduation, then any AP is good and you’re done and free to focus on electives that actually interest you and may have lenient grading.

What you’re saying is don’t take the AP exam, even if you’d ace it, because it’s stressful and instead take it easy in the first year with Mandarin 101, because the kid is a native speaker and that’s a guaranteed A. All that at a “high stats” university. I don’t think so.

No, I am not saying that. As I guessed, you have no idea what you’re talking about but spouting info to others like you do. Unless you graduated from that high stats school in the last (very) few years, your experience isn’t relevant.

In 6 years when your kid is off to college, then you should be answering questions like this.

DP but that's not a good argument and doesn't help me understand why they're wrong. Personally I would think a 12 credit courseload would be easier than a 15 credit courseload with one of the courses being a foreign language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

For most kids, testing out of lower level courses is UNhelpful when the lower level ones will provide a safety net with some familiar material for high academic schools for rising freshman of schools that grade deflate.

So yes, the downside is if you already know some of the courses you are taking won't change anything whether you do well on a few AP exams your senior year. Example: your kid can take the AP x-language exam and test out of lower level foreign language courses OR can decide early on in senior HS year that it probably makes the most sense to take the lower level foreign foreign language requirements while adjusting to college. So in this case, there is a downside to taking yet another exam (stress, wasted time, etc.), esp if you're over a limit of AP exams where your family pays for them over a certain amount.

Most of the cases I know are students that were not well prepared and chickened out of taking the exam. They still had a hard time in the college class.

You can take the AP exam AND choose to not use the AP as prerequisite and repeat the course. Very few students that know the material do that, but of course if you’re on shaky ground it’s better to repeat. There are plenty of easy classes at a university if you’re worried about grade deflation, and most of them are more fun, interesting and helpful for a future career than repeating Calculus AB.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Going back to my foreign language requirement, at a school that requires foreign language, my proposal is a great pathway. You're just assuming this is for classes you can leapfrog over and instead focus on more fun classes. Do you even have a child in a high stats college?

I don’t cause he’s in sixth grade, but I went to a “high stats college”.

Your example with a foreign language is dumb. Be more specific and you’ll see how idiotic it is. What major, what college, what AP?

If you’re talking about a foreign language requirement for graduation, then any AP is good and you’re done and free to focus on electives that actually interest you and may have lenient grading.

What you’re saying is don’t take the AP exam, even if you’d ace it, because it’s stressful and instead take it easy in the first year with Mandarin 101, because the kid is a native speaker and that’s a guaranteed A. All that at a “high stats” university. I don’t think so.

No, I am not saying that. As I guessed, you have no idea what you’re talking about but spouting info to others like you do. Unless you graduated from that high stats school in the last (very) few years, your experience isn’t relevant.

In 6 years when your kid is off to college, then you should be answering questions like this.

DP but that's not a good argument and doesn't help me understand why they're wrong. Personally I would think a 12 credit courseload would be easier than a 15 credit courseload with one of the courses being a foreign language.

She refers to the handful of colleges that don’t give any AP credit: Harvard, Brown, Dartmouth, Caltech, Amherst and Williams.

If there are foreign language requirements usually they are satisfied by an AP score of 5, or a department test, but there’s no credit towards the degree.

She’s arguing you should not do that, just take two semesters of a foreign language you know well to have an easy load.

It’s dumb, but that’s what you get when Karen does a campus tour with her child, she thinks she became an expert on “high stat college” course taking strategy because an undergrad mentioned it in passing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

I predict that in the near future community colleges will offer AP courses and exams. Many would already pass the audit, and there’s money to be made by College Board.

[Anonymous]

My sons friend switched to DE after getting a 2 his first AP exam. I do not think it is the same but UMD accepts the credit so it checks a box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My sons friend switched to DE after getting a 2 his first AP exam. I do not think it is the same but UMD accepts the credit so it checks a box.

Why are you making up stuff? Was the friend the dean of admissions from up thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My sons friend switched to DE after getting a 2 his first AP exam. I do not think it is the same but UMD accepts the credit so it checks a box.

Maybe the structure of DE works better for him. Instead of one magical bite at the apple on a single AP test at the end of the year he does better when he is graded over the course of the semester in a more balanced way.

Maybe he got a D in his DE class. Maybe he was always planning to do a blend of AP and DE classes. A datapoint of one absent any context is not particularly instructive here.

If anything DE for MCPS offers harder grading than AP since there is no rounding up of grades based on the averages over two quarters. Similarly there is no option to deselect taking the final. At least based on the previous grading policies DE felt much more risky and high pressure from a GPA and grading perspective.

[Anonymous]

AP classes are low level but so are some DE classes. Anything DE through public high school is going to be no better than AP.

The DE classes offered at elite private high schools are a tier above AP though.