Is dual enrollment the new path to getting into a good college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cornell would not take any credits that counted towards HS graduation. I assume some others schools are similar. At my kids hs, ap considered more challenging because of the exam
.

Your school is an anomaly. Even Yale counts Ib, DE and AP the same in admissions.

you are confusing credit with admissions.

No, I am not. Yale's website for ADMISSIONS, NOT its website about Yale credit for prematriculation college credits specifically says that Yale considers AP, DE and IB courses equal.

[Anonymous]

For math after Calculus BC, or Organic chemistry, or other more specialized courses you’d have to go through dual enrollment regardless, but I’m not sure how much they move the needle for admissions. Maybe only marginally, although I’ve read that a significant portion of students at top universities have taken coursework past Calculus BC.

One can argue that if Multivariable at community college is seen as rigorous, then so should be Calculus 1 and 2 taken at the same institution.

There are many ways to demonstrate coursework rigor, DE is one of them, and a safer bet if one plans to go to a public instate flagship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

I believe that. It's a shame for the kids who actually excel in rigorous classes as it is really hard to differentiate yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

[Anonymous]

Dual enrollment is so downscale.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in CA now and my son has taken 12 dual enrollment classes and 5 AP classes. There has not been one community college class that is anywhere remotely close to the rigor of a well taught AP course or even an honors class at his upper middle class, competitive high school with the exception of a dual enrollment math class and chemistry class.

I think all colleges realize the rigor is not the same. However, public 4 year colleges love dual enrollment because kids can graduate faster and/or not have to take as many lower division units and/ir not as many units per quarter/semester. My son took 12-13 units every quarter instead of 15 freshman year at his UC.

My experience was opposite. The rigor of AP classes is overblown in my opinion. Between AP Calculus BC and community college Calculus I and II, the latter one covered more material, but the exam was easier, both require about one hour of studying per day.

AP Physics C has the same textbook as first semester of CC calculus physics 1, but is doing about two thirds of the material. Same story for AP Physics C Electromagnetism.

The instructions are far better at community college, with at least Master or PhD degrees from UC Berkeley or other comparable universities.

depends on the High school. many publics and all three top privates have masters and PhD teaching the AP classes.

Who are you kidding here?

There are very few high school teachers with PhD degrees, including top privates. At our decent local high school there’s none in the science department, same at the best catholic private in the area. The dirty secret of privates is that they don’t pay their teachers well so they don’t attract the best and brightest.

At the community college all science instructors have PhDs. Master is the minimum degree requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Asked this very question on a college visit recently. Admission director said they now use an algorithm that assesses the difficulty of the student’s high school program as well as rigor of courses. She said this recent change is due to the uptick in students with high GPAs and poor academic preparation and performance in college.

She said they essentially “zero out” GPAs and re-evaluate them based on their algorithm which rates students 1 to 4. So for instance, a student with a GPA over 4.0 who attended a mid-range high school and took DE/AP might rank below a student with a 3.8 who attended a more rigorous high school and took AP, etc.

This was our first college visit — DS is just a sophomore — so it may be common practice.

Admissions director admitted to using an algorithm to devalue GPAs for students who took the hardest course load offered at schools with fewer challenging AP options, and inflate GPAs for students who were fortunate enough to have more challenging courses and higher scoring peers, whick tracks very strongly with demographics? REALLY?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

For most kids, testing out of lower level courses is UNhelpful when the lower level ones will provide a safety net with some familiar material for high academic schools for rising freshman of schools that grade deflate.

So yes, the downside is if you already know some of the courses you are taking won't change anything whether you do well on a few AP exams your senior year. Example: your kid can take the AP x-language exam and test out of lower level foreign language courses OR can decide early on in senior HS year that it probably makes the most sense to take the lower level foreign foreign language requirements while adjusting to college. So in this case, there is a downside to taking yet another exam (stress, wasted time, etc.), esp if you're over a limit of AP exams where your family pays for them over a certain amount.

[Anonymous]

AP scores are fantastic at being transparent in regards to how prepared a student is for college. There are AP exams such as AP English Language and AP US History where only 10% of test takers get a 5. It is much easier to compare students taking the same tests.

A student who goes to a rigorous school with no grade inflation and gets a B+ in APUSH or AP English but gets a 5 is a better prepared student than someone who goes to a school where almost everyone gets an A in APUSH but gets a 3 on the exam.

2024
AP English 5 - 9.8% 4- 21%
APUSH. 5- 12.8 % 4- 33%
Biology. 5- 16.8% 4- 23.1%
Chemistry 5 17.9%. 4- 27.4%

In comparison there is a vast difference between dual enrollment classes and they aren’t easily comparible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in CA now and my son has taken 12 dual enrollment classes and 5 AP classes. There has not been one community college class that is anywhere remotely close to the rigor of a well taught AP course or even an honors class at his upper middle class, competitive high school with the exception of a dual enrollment math class and chemistry class.

I think all colleges realize the rigor is not the same. However, public 4 year colleges love dual enrollment because kids can graduate faster and/or not have to take as many lower division units and/ir not as many units per quarter/semester. My son took 12-13 units every quarter instead of 15 freshman year at his UC.

My experience was opposite. The rigor of AP classes is overblown in my opinion. Between AP Calculus BC and community college Calculus I and II, the latter one covered more material, but the exam was easier, both require about one hour of studying per day.

AP Physics C has the same textbook as first semester of CC calculus physics 1, but is doing about two thirds of the material. Same story for AP Physics C Electromagnetism.

The instructions are far better at community college, with at least Master or PhD degrees from UC Berkeley or other comparable universities.

depends on the High school. many publics and all three top privates have masters and PhD teaching the AP classes.

Who are you kidding here?

There are very few high school teachers with PhD degrees, including top privates. At our decent local high school there’s none in the science department, same at the best catholic private in the area. The dirty secret of privates is that they don’t pay their teachers well so they don’t attract the best and brightest.

At the community college all science instructors have PhDs. Master is the minimum degree requirement.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP scores are fantastic at being transparent in regards to how prepared a student is for college. There are AP exams such as AP English Language and AP US History where only 10% of test takers get a 5. It is much easier to compare students taking the same tests.

A student who goes to a rigorous school with no grade inflation and gets a B+ in APUSH or AP English but gets a 5 is a better prepared student than someone who goes to a school where almost everyone gets an A in APUSH but gets a 3 on the exam.

2024
AP English 5 - 9.8% 4- 21%
APUSH. 5- 12.8 % 4- 33%
Biology. 5- 16.8% 4- 23.1%
Chemistry 5 17.9%. 4- 27.4%

In comparison there is a vast difference between dual enrollment classes and they aren’t easily comparible.

This is just repeating what you've heard. Getting a 5 on an AP exam is still up to 20%+ wrong. And please - please - don't be one of those parents who believes public school kids are a bunch of high GPA dummies because As are given out like candy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It may be with the lowering of standards for AP courses and exams. It’s one way to demonstrate rigor, but not the only one. There’s more variability in the rigor of DE classes, but AP classes also fall short of a rigorous college class.

Standards for courses are all over the place. Some AP courses are a joke (the kids won’t even sit for the exam because they are unprepared even though they got A’s), and some DE courses are a joke. Other AP courses or DE courses can be quite rigorous. This is why I suspect that AP scores will become more important for quality control.

I’ve read AP exams before as a gig job because I have taught an AP class. College Board is super concerned about competition from DE programs, so exam scores are being watered down. It’s a lot easier to pass the exam than it was before 2020.

One can always take DE and sit on the AP exam to have both options for credit transfer and AP score.

ALmost all top ranked schools accept very few credits from rising freshman so actually taking the exams at a certain point could be considered not worth it. Esp during senior year.

There is zero downside of taking the AP exam. Even if you don’t get credit you might be able to clear prerequisites.

I could see it in senior year, but you’d know for sure around April or May, and by that time you have already prepared all year for the class, so it’s only a few extra weeks for effort.

For most kids, testing out of lower level courses is UNhelpful when the lower level ones will provide a safety net with some familiar material for high academic schools for rising freshman of schools that grade deflate.

So yes, the downside is if you already know some of the courses you are taking won't change anything whether you do well on a few AP exams your senior year. Example: your kid can take the AP x-language exam and test out of lower level foreign language courses OR can decide early on in senior HS year that it probably makes the most sense to take the lower level foreign foreign language requirements while adjusting to college. So in this case, there is a downside to taking yet another exam (stress, wasted time, etc.), esp if you're over a limit of AP exams where your family pays for them over a certain amount.

Most of the cases I know are students that were not well prepared and chickened out of taking the exam. They still had a hard time in the college class.

You can take the AP exam AND choose to not use the AP as prerequisite and repeat the course. Very few students that know the material do that, but of course if you’re on shaky ground it’s better to repeat. There are plenty of easy classes at a university if you’re worried about grade deflation, and most of them are more fun, interesting and helpful for a future career than repeating Calculus AB.