Thoughts on help for the SAT/ACT for a smart student who is struggling with these tests

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If no improvement after months of tutoring, I would have the kid stop and work with the test scores they have. Three attempts is plenty.

Curious why it is not ok in family dynamics for one kid to be better at school and other to be better in standardized tests? Doesn’t the standardized test kid get to be better at something?

It doesn't come from us. The twins compare themselves with everything. The amount of money they made last summer, the miles they drove when getting their drivers' licenses, the ice cream sandwiches they ate last week...

Twins are an exceedingly interesting dynamic. Their entire world (teachers, friends, neighbors, their pediatrician) compares them to each other constantly. As parents you fight against this from the minute they're born when the nurses make comments on who is longer and who weighs more. The kids internalize this when it's all they hear for years. As parents you spend their entire lives trying to make people see them as individuals.

It's entirely different with our other kids (we have 2 more). They don't compare things to each other or their siblings.

Listen I get it, I have 21 year told twins. The college application/acceptance process is going to be a bumpy ride for you AND them and they will hopefully get over this a bit, and you will need to support them in that. My twins know they are entirely different people with different strengths and weaknesses (b/g as well) so as they have matured, they do less comparison. In college, my DS has a 3.9 amd my DD has a 3.4 GPA, the latter being a stem major. They do not compare themselves. My DD knows why she has the GPA she has. They got into the same school, but there is always talk that the "stronger" academic pulled the other in etc. Comparison is the thief of joy. That's all there is so say and twins need to learn that.

I stand by my earlier post that a 1410 is fine. Completely fine. Tell your DC that. Do now buy into this, "it's not good enough" or "it isn't the best I can do". It is and it will have to be. The pressure to measure up is probably malking them more anxious every time they go to the test site, and that's not helping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’d schedule a meeting with your school’s teaching and learning center and ask their opinion. Concurrently, I’d schedule meeting with pediatrician to discuss options on a neuropsych… they may be able to call in a favor and get testing scheduled soon.

If all falls into place, and there is a slow processing score, he/she can have accommodations in place for fall testing.

Should everyone do this so that "all falls into place" for everyone to score a 1490/35?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have twins.
They both do equally well at a rigorous school that is very stingy with As.
One is in harder classes (physics C, multivariate, etc).

The one in the easier classes takes standardized tests extremely well. NO PREP. First try ACT 35. First try SAT 1540/
The one in the harder classes just really struggles with the ACT/SAT. Scores have been 1410 and now 1360. ACT was 27.
He/she has done fine on AP exams (all 5). There is something about the SAT/ACT that he/she cannot perform on.
He/she has done extensive prep (several hours a week doing problems for months).

We're realizing that this kid probably has some sort of undiagnosed learning issue (too late for this now).
He/she can't read at the speed needed for the passages (even the short ones on the digital SAT). Has to read
things 2 and 3 times to focus. Also having issues with the math although it's less clear what.
Where would you go from here?
They're not going to apply to Ivies but we were hoping for reasonably competitive schools.
If not applying test optional, is there some way to do intensive prep?

It's so frustrating because on a daily basis these kids perform the same or if anything the second one is a stronger student in harder classes and able to grasp more abstract concepts.

Thoughts on what to do about prep?

Don’t do anything other than push the 1540 kid to maximize their course rigor. That kid is not being challenged to their potential by their classes—they either did not put in effort in earlier grades where math tracking is done or the school did not use standardized testing as a part of math tracking or both: but the kid was “missed” as far as placement into the harder courses sibling is in.
The lower scoring kid in MV and PhysicsC now: my guess based on scores is that Physics C has been hard if the school only gives 1/3 As(you said stingy with As). The vast majority of private schools in DCUm and Va have grade distributions giving 1/3 or moreA-/A. Some are more like half As or more. Sounds as though both of your kids have a fair amount of Bs. The 1410 makes perfect sense in that context. 1410 is typically right around top 1/3 of these types of rigorous high schools. How that kid got pushed ahead to MV in 11th grade is a bit concerning because it seems as though that was too far.
You should have standardized testing on the kids from when they got into the school. The 1410 kid has likely always been around 90th%ile which is very bright and if they work very hard they could get a mix of As and Bs in rigorous courses. I would be very surprised if the kid in the lower classes hasn’t always been 98-99%ile just does not work up to their potential or somehow was not selected when the top math group track was formed. That one may have a focus or organizational issue OR just isn’t very motivated by academic challenge. However, they could definitely handle much harder rigor in the HS.

(Yes i have access to various prep school profiles and grade curves across DC and Va and experience in this area regarding psychoEd testing and giftedness and the like)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d schedule a meeting with your school’s teaching and learning center and ask their opinion. Concurrently, I’d schedule meeting with pediatrician to discuss options on a neuropsych… they may be able to call in a favor and get testing scheduled soon.

If all falls into place, and there is a slow processing score, he/she can have accommodations in place for fall testing.

Should everyone do this so that "all falls into place" for everyone to score a 1490/35?

“Falls into place” means if you can get an appointment and get tested.

The second thought was IF there is a processing issue. Not diagnosing … but it’s what I’d be wanting to know.

It’s not unusual for girls to over compensate for years and hit a wall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d schedule a meeting with your school’s teaching and learning center and ask their opinion. Concurrently, I’d schedule meeting with pediatrician to discuss options on a neuropsych… they may be able to call in a favor and get testing scheduled soon.

If all falls into place, and there is a slow processing score, he/she can have accommodations in place for fall testing.

Should everyone do this so that "all falls into place" for everyone to score a 1490/35?

“Falls into place” means if you can get an appointment and get tested.

The second thought was IF there is a processing issue. Not diagnosing … but it’s what I’d be wanting to know.

It’s not unusual for girls to over compensate for years and hit a wall.

My understanding (from watching others) is that the College Board is not going to instantly grant accommodations even if the school does and especially if the grades are good. I know quite a few kids who scrambled for accommodations in 11th grade and who have been denied by the college board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have twins.
They both do equally well at a rigorous school that is very stingy with As.
One is in harder classes (physics C, multivariate, etc).

The one in the easier classes takes standardized tests extremely well. NO PREP. First try ACT 35. First try SAT 1540/
The one in the harder classes just really struggles with the ACT/SAT. Scores have been 1410 and now 1360. ACT was 27.
He/she has done fine on AP exams (all 5). There is something about the SAT/ACT that he/she cannot perform on.
He/she has done extensive prep (several hours a week doing problems for months).

We're realizing that this kid probably has some sort of undiagnosed learning issue (too late for this now).
He/she can't read at the speed needed for the passages (even the short ones on the digital SAT). Has to read
things 2 and 3 times to focus. Also having issues with the math although it's less clear what.
Where would you go from here?
They're not going to apply to Ivies but we were hoping for reasonably competitive schools.
If not applying test optional, is there some way to do intensive prep?

It's so frustrating because on a daily basis these kids perform the same or if anything the second one is a stronger student in harder classes and able to grasp more abstract concepts.

Thoughts on what to do about prep?

Don’t do anything other than push the 1540 kid to maximize their course rigor. That kid is not being challenged to their potential by their classes—they either did not put in effort in earlier grades where math tracking is done or the school did not use standardized testing as a part of math tracking or both: but the kid was “missed” as far as placement into the harder courses sibling is in.
The lower scoring kid in MV and PhysicsC now: my guess based on scores is that Physics C has been hard if the school only gives 1/3 As(you said stingy with As). The vast majority of private schools in DCUm and Va have grade distributions giving 1/3 or moreA-/A. Some are more like half As or more. Sounds as though both of your kids have a fair amount of Bs. The 1410 makes perfect sense in that context. 1410 is typically right around top 1/3 of these types of rigorous high schools. How that kid got pushed ahead to MV in 11th grade is a bit concerning because it seems as though that was too far.
You should have standardized testing on the kids from when they got into the school. The 1410 kid has likely always been around 90th%ile which is very bright and if they work very hard they could get a mix of As and Bs in rigorous courses. I would be very surprised if the kid in the lower classes hasn’t always been 98-99%ile just does not work up to their potential or somehow was not selected when the top math group track was formed. That one may have a focus or organizational issue OR just isn’t very motivated by academic challenge. However, they could definitely handle much harder rigor in the HS.

(Yes i have access to various prep school profiles and grade curves across DC and Va and experience in this area regarding psychoEd testing and giftedness and the like)

OP here. I really do appreciate the thought you put in the post but you are assuming all sorts things that aren't correct. My kids are not in private and they don't have "a fair amount of Bs". The one with the lower SAT has had no Bs at all and the other one has had 1. They've each had A minuses. The one in multivariable is doing great in the class (about to finish). He/she is one of a few kids with an A or A- (from what I understand).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If no improvement after months of tutoring, I would have the kid stop and work with the test scores they have. Three attempts is plenty.

Curious why it is not ok in family dynamics for one kid to be better at school and other to be better in standardized tests? Doesn’t the standardized test kid get to be better at something?

It doesn't come from us. The twins compare themselves with everything. The amount of money they made last summer, the miles they drove when getting their drivers' licenses, the ice cream sandwiches they ate last week...

Twins are an exceedingly interesting dynamic. Their entire world (teachers, friends, neighbors, their pediatrician) compares them to each other constantly. As parents you fight against this from the minute they're born when the nurses make comments on who is longer and who weighs more. The kids internalize this when it's all they hear for years. As parents you spend their entire lives trying to make people see them as individuals.

It's entirely different with our other kids (we have 2 more). They don't compare things to each other or their siblings.

I'm also a twin mom and I am facing a similar discrepancy in testing, even though it's not as big of a discrepancy as yours. I don't know why everyone's saying it's too late to get tested for ADD or anxiety and get special accommodation IF you feel that that's the case here. If not, I think in my shoes I would reach out to a different tutor - there are ones that focus on test anxiety.

People are saying it is too late bc it takes time to get the testing and reporting done. And after that diagnosis is received you have to submit it with other paperwork to College Board and ask for an accommodation. They do that on a set schedule, I think the due date is in January. And after the due date it takes a couple months for the accommodation letter to come. That will be the end of senior year for this student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone can score a 35. A 27, a score in the 85th percentile, doesn't automatically mean there is a diagnosable learning difference. Isn't the average ACT score like a 20? I suppose you could try to get a diagnosis to get extended time, if time allows. However, isn't the time crunch supposed to be part of what makes the test a challenge?

Yeah, I graduated 20 years ago and 27 was considered a very good score. 35 was an out-of-this-world score that only one kid in my 2000-student UMC high school got (me) and I haven't had the career to show for it. I don't see where a 27 ACT is "struggling" unless the scoring has been completely revamped and all the kids are above average now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's so frustrating because on a daily basis these kids perform the same or if anything the second one is a stronger student in harder classes and able to grasp more abstract concepts.

Thoughts on what to do about prep?

The issue isn’t the score itself, it is the comparison between the twins and the one with the lower score being hard on themselves and their confidence. There are competitive colleges where the twin with the lower score has a good chance - PPs gave some ideas. But none of those schools will be a cake walk to get in so the push to improve the scores even more can’t be made at the expense of ECs, making a balanced college list, writing strong essays including the ones where the school is asking Why us, and making the case of why you as an individual, not your twin, would be a good fit.

My kids are very close in age and same gender and there is an underlying comparison between them. In the end, they are both good students. They both ended up at selective schools. But they did find the school that fit them versus the other way around - one is at a LAC, the other a top public university. I was thrilled because each one ended up at the school that all along I always thought was the best fit for them but kept to myself until decision time.

[Anonymous]

I also have twins (G/G) with a much wider range between them academically, and the comparisons/rivalry have been brutal to deal with, so I def empathize with that part of it. Both of mine are on the autism spectrum, so I've been in the accommodations space for quite a while.

I would certainly look into getting a neuropsych eval for your DD ASAP. Working concurrently with your school team, maybe possible to get accommodations into place in time for a November or December test. But regardless of that outcome, testing could bring to light info that would be helpful for college and beyond.

Agree with posters saying 1410 is a good score, but really that all depends on where she wants to apply. And I understand the frustration with feeling that the score is not representative of capabilities. For my higher-performing twin, that was definitely the case and she never got much improvement despite months of private tutoring. After the second official attempt, we decided to move on and apply TO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have twins.
They both do equally well at a rigorous school that is very stingy with As.
One is in harder classes (physics C, multivariate, etc).

The one in the easier classes takes standardized tests extremely well. NO PREP. First try ACT 35. First try SAT 1540/
The one in the harder classes just really struggles with the ACT/SAT. Scores have been 1410 and now 1360. ACT was 27.
He/she has done fine on AP exams (all 5). There is something about the SAT/ACT that he/she cannot perform on.
He/she has done extensive prep (several hours a week doing problems for months).

We're realizing that this kid probably has some sort of undiagnosed learning issue (too late for this now).
He/she can't read at the speed needed for the passages (even the short ones on the digital SAT). Has to read
things 2 and 3 times to focus. Also having issues with the math although it's less clear what.
Where would you go from here?
They're not going to apply to Ivies but we were hoping for reasonably competitive schools.
If not applying test optional, is there some way to do intensive prep?

It's so frustrating because on a daily basis these kids perform the same or if anything the second one is a stronger student in harder classes and able to grasp more abstract concepts.

Thoughts on what to do about prep?

Sorry OP,

Something isn’t adding up. You have a junior who is so far ahead in math that he/she is taking multivariable calc (and has an A or A-) as a junior AND has taken multiple AP tests and gotten 5s on each but is struggling with SAT/ACT after working with a tutor? This makes no sense. Perhaps you’ve embellished to hide identity?

I’d say it’s test anxiety, but so many things don’t add up that I’m just skeptical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone can score a 35. A 27, a score in the 85th percentile, doesn't automatically mean there is a diagnosable learning difference. Isn't the average ACT score like a 20? I suppose you could try to get a diagnosis to get extended time, if time allows. However, isn't the time crunch supposed to be part of what makes the test a challenge?

Yeah, I graduated 20 years ago and 27 was considered a very good score. 35 was an out-of-this-world score that only one kid in my 2000-student UMC high school got (me) and I haven't had the career to show for it. I don't see where a 27 ACT is "struggling" unless the scoring has been completely revamped and all the kids are above average now.

THIS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have twins.
They both do equally well at a rigorous school that is very stingy with As.
One is in harder classes (physics C, multivariate, etc).

The one in the easier classes takes standardized tests extremely well. NO PREP. First try ACT 35. First try SAT 1540/
The one in the harder classes just really struggles with the ACT/SAT. Scores have been 1410 and now 1360. ACT was 27.
He/she has done fine on AP exams (all 5). There is something about the SAT/ACT that he/she cannot perform on.
He/she has done extensive prep (several hours a week doing problems for months).

We're realizing that this kid probably has some sort of undiagnosed learning issue (too late for this now).
He/she can't read at the speed needed for the passages (even the short ones on the digital SAT). Has to read
things 2 and 3 times to focus. Also having issues with the math although it's less clear what.
Where would you go from here?
They're not going to apply to Ivies but we were hoping for reasonably competitive schools.
If not applying test optional, is there some way to do intensive prep?

It's so frustrating because on a daily basis these kids perform the same or if anything the second one is a stronger student in harder classes and able to grasp more abstract concepts.

Thoughts on what to do about prep?

Sorry OP,

Something isn’t adding up. You have a junior who is so far ahead in math that he/she is taking multivariable calc (and has an A or A-) as a junior AND has taken multiple AP tests and gotten 5s on each but is struggling with SAT/ACT after working with a tutor? This makes no sense. Perhaps you’ve embellished to hide identity?

I’d say it’s test anxiety, but so many things don’t add up that I’m just skeptical.

+1000

[Anonymous]

A lot of people can get good grades but not super high test scores. You can study material for a long time until you eventually absorb it well enough to get an "A" in school. This is not the same skill as being able to score high on a timed standardized test. The "worst student" out of mine scores the highest, while the one with all As scores lower. For some students, the stars align, and they are both motivated to get all As and able to score high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone can score a 35. A 27, a score in the 85th percentile, doesn't automatically mean there is a diagnosable learning difference. Isn't the average ACT score like a 20? I suppose you could try to get a diagnosis to get extended time, if time allows. However, isn't the time crunch supposed to be part of what makes the test a challenge?

Yeah, I graduated 20 years ago and 27 was considered a very good score. 35 was an out-of-this-world score that only one kid in my 2000-student UMC high school got (me) and I haven't had the career to show for it. I don't see where a 27 ACT is "struggling" unless the scoring has been completely revamped and all the kids are above average now.

THIS

Bc everyone on DCUM DESERVES to be able to get into a top school. The bell curve is ingored and inapplicable bc everyone on DCUM is or should automatically be at the very end of the distribution. If not, there must be a diagnosable difference bc it is impossible that anyone on DCUM would be towards the middle or, gasp, below the curve.