Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side

[Muslima]

http://nyti.ms/1HnkDOC

Fascinating read. I couldn't help but notice so many parallels with Saudi culture in the article above.I'd like to preface this by saying that I know and understand that there are many laws, cultural norms in Saudi Arabia that are misogynistic and stem from tribalism and the fact that Bedouin society has always been segregated. I'm not debating that. Where I want to take the conversation is more on the article's point that there are many upper class women in the US who are educated stay at home parents who live very segregated lives from their male counterparts in a non segregated culture. However, this is completely acceptable and these same women are praised for their selfless choices and these choices are culturally acceptable. However, when women in other parts of the world make these same choices, they are automatically labeled as brainwashed and submissive. The part where the author states :
“It’s easier and more fun,” the women insisted when I asked about the sex segregation that defined their lives.“We prefer it,” the men told me at a dinner party where husbands and wives sat at entirely different tables in entirely different rooms" is particularly telling. As I could see Saudi men and women answering this question the same way, using the same logic. Thoughts?

The women I met, mainly at playgrounds, play groups and the nursery schools where I took my sons, were mostly 30-somethings with advanced degrees from prestigious universities and business schools. They were married to rich, powerful men, many of whom ran hedge or private equity funds; they often had three or four children under the age of 10; they lived west of Lexington Avenue, north of 63rd Street and south of 94th Street; and they did not work outside the home.

Instead they toiled in what the sociologist Sharon Hays calls “intensive mothering,” exhaustively enriching their children’s lives by virtually every measure, then advocating for them anxiously and sometimes ruthlessly in the linked high-stakes games of social jockeying and school admissions.

But as my inner anthropologist quickly realized, there was the undeniable fact of their cloistering from men. There were alcohol-fueled girls’ nights out, and women-only luncheons and trunk shows and “shopping for a cause” events. There were mommy coffees, and women-only dinners in lavish homes. There were even some girlfriend-only flyaway parties on private planes, where everyone packed and wore outfits the same color.

“It’s easier and more fun,” the women insisted when I asked about the sex segregation that defined their lives.

“We prefer it,” the men told me at a dinner party where husbands and wives sat at entirely different tables in entirely different rooms.

Sex segregation, I was told, was a “choice.” But like “choosing” not to work, or a Dogon woman in Mali’s “choosing” to go into a menstrual hut, it struck me as a state of affairs possibly giving clue to some deeper, meaningful reality while masquerading, like a reveler at the Save Venice ball the women attended every spring, as a simple preference.

And then, there's the wife bonus. I'd be curious to know if any DCUM moms get end of year bonuses?

A wife bonus, I was told, might be hammered out in a pre-nup or post-nup, and distributed on the basis of not only how well her husband’s fund had done but her own performance — how well she managed the home budget, whether the kids got into a “good” school — the same way their husbands were rewarded at investment banks. In turn these bonuses were a ticket to a modicum of financial independence and participation in a social sphere where you don’t just go to lunch, you buy a $10,000 table at the benefit luncheon a friend is hosting.

[Anonymous]

Wtf, covering is such a terrible thing and an example of oppression

[Anonymous]

Can they vote or drive gtfo

[Anonymous]

I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

[Anonymous]

Sigh...I know you created this to be controversial and all of that. You're very tiresome and annoying. And now I seriously doubt your intelligence after comparing these two

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

[Anonymous]

Saudi women living in the U.S. are free to be as different as they wish and to practice their religion to the degree they with (within the common law of the people in the U.S.).

Before there was a U.S., religious pilgrims came here fleeing oppression in Europe; we celebrate them yearly at Thanksgiving.

Be as modest as you want and pray as often as you like. We encourage it in fact. Diversity is our strength.

But we also value tolerance. We don't believe that prohibiting women from driving is tolerant. We don't believe in having Saudi-style religious police to enforce sharia. We tolerate people of all faiths, and people of no faith. And we tolerate freedom of expression - even offensive speech like burning our flag or burning a Koran. It is protected speech.

I'm not convinced you've managed to reconcile the freedoms we give you with the tolerance we require as Americans.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:Saudi women living in the U.S. are free to be as different as they wish and to practice their religion to the degree they with (within the common law of the people in the U.S.).

Before there was a U.S., religious pilgrims came here fleeing oppression in Europe; we celebrate them yearly at Thanksgiving.

Be as modest as you want and pray as often as you like. We encourage it in fact. Diversity is our strength.

But we also value tolerance. We don't believe that prohibiting women from driving is tolerant. We don't believe in having Saudi-style religious police to enforce sharia. We tolerate people of all faiths, and people of no faith. And we tolerate freedom of expression - even offensive speech like burning our flag or burning a Koran. It is protected speech.

I'm not convinced you've managed to reconcile the freedoms we give you with the tolerance we require as Americans.

I don't think you read what I wrote and you're circling back the conversation to issues that come from tribalism and the plight of Saudi women. And I don't know who you're referring to when you say 'we' and as opposed to whom? Many Saudi women might agree with you on those points, and let's not talk about Thanksgiving which is another issue..

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

[Anonymous]

By the way, the bizarre UES women described in this article do not resemble the ambitious UES career-having mothers I knew when I lived in New York. Then again, their husbands were partners at firms, not executives at hedge funds, so that is a different level of wealth.

Still, I don't think the author of that article is accurately representing New York's elite.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.

Are we talking about Saudi women living in the US? Because that's a whole different ballgame if we are comparing American born women in the US and Saudi born women in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Saudi women living in the U.S. are free to be as different as they wish and to practice their religion to the degree they with (within the common law of the people in the U.S.).

Before there was a U.S., religious pilgrims came here fleeing oppression in Europe; we celebrate them yearly at Thanksgiving.

Be as modest as you want and pray as often as you like. We encourage it in fact. Diversity is our strength.

But we also value tolerance. We don't believe that prohibiting women from driving is tolerant. We don't believe in having Saudi-style religious police to enforce sharia. We tolerate people of all faiths, and people of no faith. And we tolerate freedom of expression - even offensive speech like burning our flag or burning a Koran. It is protected speech.

I'm not convinced you've managed to reconcile the freedoms we give you with the tolerance we require as Americans.

+1

And I'm a Muslim-American from a very modern Muslim-American family. I have no idea what the purpose of OP's thread is. Comparing Saudi women's circumstances with the circumstances of American women is a ridiculous equivalence. OP, you know that a lot of Middle-Eastern countries think the Saudis are batshit crazy, don't you?