Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote: http://nyti.ms/1HnkDOC

Fascinating read. I couldn't help but notice so many parallels with Saudi culture in the article above.I'd like to preface this by saying that I know and understand that there are many laws, cultural norms in Saudi Arabia that are misogynistic and stem from tribalism and the fact that Bedouin society has always been segregated. I'm not debating that. Where I want to take the conversation is more on the article's point that there are many upper class women in the US who are educated stay at home parents who live very segregated lives from their male counterparts in a non segregated culture. However, this is completely acceptable and these same women are praised for their selfless choices and these choices are culturally acceptable. However, when women in other parts of the world make these same choices, they are automatically labeled as brainwashed and submissive. The part where the author states :
“It’s easier and more fun,” the women insisted when I asked about the sex segregation that defined their lives.“We prefer it,” the men told me at a dinner party where husbands and wives sat at entirely different tables in entirely different rooms" is particularly telling. As I could see Saudi men and women answering this question the same way, using the same logic. Thoughts?

Thoughts? I'll give you one thought. Do you understand the difference between "voluntary" and "enforced"? You know perfectly well that Saudi men and women do not "make a choice" to segregate. That choice is imposed on them by societal customs and by government structures that maintain separate entrances and public offices for women, that make it impossible for men and women to study side-by-side, and that maintain women in the state of perpetual minors who need the approval of their male relatives for most decisions in life.

The thing is, I know you know all that perfectly well, you're just counting on the possibility no one reading this actually understands the reality of life in KSA.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:It is not a secret that the Saudi regime is oppressive to women and Saudi women do face many problems and cultural discrimination. Again, that is NOT the point of this discussion. There isn't a debate there, I fully Agree from my OP that those issues exist and are REAL. The discussion I wanted to have was one about the women described in the article whose "choices" and social etiquettes mirror those of Saudi women. From what I see, most people automatically argued that those UES women "chose" that lifestyle, they couldn't certainly have been pressured to leave their careers behind and devote their lives to their families, their segregation is a choice that is totally acceptable. The paradox is that based on the definition of freedom that a lot of people like to hand left and right, the UES women do not look so free and their motivations/justifications are sometimes the same as those living in what are considered "oppressed" regions, their choices at the end make them dependent on men and disempowered . What is even more interesting to me, is that this occurs in an Upper Class, wealthy sub-society where, presumably these women have a wide variety of choices and options of how to live their life at their disposal, and this is the route that is chosen. There is also the issue of the wife bonus, where at the end of the year, the husband gets to stand in judgment of the wife, determine how good she did, and allocate money to her based on a set of performance metrics for the wife, that is crazy to me.

These are not choices, this is what society and government imposes on women.

[Anonymous]

Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

[Anonymous]

Here's some more lifestyle choice for women in Saudi
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/saudi-authorities-stop-textmessage-tracking-of-women-for-now-9065486.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you read the NYT article about the SAHM "bonuses?" It may all turn out to be complete bs. Read the comments. No one, including myself, who is a former UES resident (although one without that level of wealth), had ever heard of such bonuses. It is suspected that the NYT reporter overheard a comment, failed to interview anyone who might actually have ever have received such a bonus, and ran a story proclaiming it as truth.

+1
The whole notion of SAHM "bonuses" probably originated from someone with the typical ax to grind re: anything concerning SAHMs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

I've seen several women in Niqab around Reston and Herndon and a Saudi school is located in Herndon. Not familiar with the halal pizza situation. I'm not implying Muslima is in Herndon or Reston, but observing that women living in what I personally consider enslavement are my neighbors.

[Anonymous]

I think OP makes an interesting point. Obviously still a huge difference (choice vs no rights). But after that, these women seem to have a second class status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

I've seen several women in Niqab around Reston and Herndon and a Saudi school is located in Herndon. Not familiar with the halal pizza situation. I'm not implying Muslima is in Herndon or Reston, but observing that women living in what I personally consider enslavement are my neighbors.

There's a ton of Indopak and therefore halal options in Ashburn and thereabouts.

It's a very broad definition of enslavement you got going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

I've seen several women in Niqab around Reston and Herndon and a Saudi school is located in Herndon. Not familiar with the halal pizza situation. I'm not implying Muslima is in Herndon or Reston, but observing that women living in what I personally consider enslavement are my neighbors.

There's a ton of Indopak and therefore halal options in Ashburn and thereabouts.

It's a very broad definition of enslavement you got going on.

OK so how do you reconcile feminism with it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

I've seen several women in Niqab around Reston and Herndon and a Saudi school is located in Herndon. Not familiar with the halal pizza situation. I'm not implying Muslima is in Herndon or Reston, but observing that women living in what I personally consider enslavement are my neighbors.

There's a ton of Indopak and therefore halal options in Ashburn and thereabouts.

It's a very broad definition of enslavement you got going on.

Go shrouded or face violent retaliation or death from your menfolk seems pretty specific to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look if one of Muslima's footnoted problems is that she can't find a good Halal pizza, she can't be in London or NYC. There are rows of Halal stores, including pizza places. My guess is that she is in Ashburn or some other back of beyond tech center with her tech husband who is here to learn as much as he can before being hauled back to the Middle East to work.

The bigger question for Muslima is her collection of sexy lingerie the Saudi men make their women wear.

I've seen several women in Niqab around Reston and Herndon and a Saudi school is located in Herndon. Not familiar with the halal pizza situation. I'm not implying Muslima is in Herndon or Reston, but observing that women living in what I personally consider enslavement are my neighbors.

There's a ton of Indopak and therefore halal options in Ashburn and thereabouts.

It's a very broad definition of enslavement you got going on.

Go shrouded or face violent retaliation or death from your menfolk seems pretty specific to me.

+1
Trying to breathe through fabric sounds very anxiety-inducing.