Saudi women are not so different from women on the Upper East Side

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.

Are we talking about Saudi women living in the US? Because that's a whole different ballgame if we are comparing American born women in the US and Saudi born women in the US.

I'm talking about Saudi women in Saudi Arabia. There is no denying that Saudi society is sexist and I have stated that on the opening post. The point I was raising was that the women described in the article have a life that parallels Saudi culture a lot, however theirs is seen as acceptable while the other is not

Do the Saudi women tolerate their husbands having mistresses?

Oh come on. As long as he brings home the money and no diseases, many of the women on DCUM tolerate their husbands having mistresses. Don't ask, don't tell.

[Muslima]

It is not a secret that the Saudi regime is oppressive to women and Saudi women do face many problems and cultural discrimination. Again, that is NOT the point of this discussion. There isn't a debate there, I fully Agree from my OP that those issues exist and are REAL. The discussion I wanted to have was one about the women described in the article whose "choices" and social etiquettes mirror those of Saudi women. From what I see, most people automatically argued that those UES women "chose" that lifestyle, they couldn't certainly have been pressured to leave their careers behind and devote their lives to their families, their segregation is a choice that is totally acceptable. The paradox is that based on the definition of freedom that a lot of people like to hand left and right, the UES women do not look so free and their motivations/justifications are sometimes the same as those living in what are considered "oppressed" regions, their choices at the end make them dependent on men and disempowered . What is even more interesting to me, is that this occurs in an Upper Class, wealthy sub-society where, presumably these women have a wide variety of choices and options of how to live their life at their disposal, and this is the route that is chosen. There is also the issue of the wife bonus, where at the end of the year, the husband gets to stand in judgment of the wife, determine how good she did, and allocate money to her based on a set of performance metrics for the wife, that is crazy to me.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:It is not a secret that the Saudi regime is oppressive to women and Saudi women do face many problems and cultural discrimination. Again, that is NOT the point of this discussion. There isn't a debate there, I fully Agree from my OP that those issues exist and are REAL. The discussion I wanted to have was one about the women described in the article whose "choices" and social etiquettes mirror those of Saudi women. From what I see, most people automatically argued that those UES women "chose" that lifestyle, they couldn't certainly have been pressured to leave their careers behind and devote their lives to their families, their segregation is a choice that is totally acceptable. The paradox is that based on the definition of freedom that a lot of people like to hand left and right, the UES women do not look so free and their motivations/justifications are sometimes the same as those living in what are considered "oppressed" regions, their choices at the end make them dependent on men and disempowered . What is even more interesting to me, is that this occurs in an Upper Class, wealthy sub-society where, presumably these women have a wide variety of choices and options of how to live their life at their disposal, and this is the route that is chosen. There is also the issue of the wife bonus, where at the end of the year, the husband gets to stand in judgment of the wife, determine how good she did, and allocate money to her based on a set of performance metrics for the wife, that is crazy to me.

The gist of your OP:

Look! Saudi women and UES women are so similar. How come when UES women choose it, it's applauded and Saudi women choose it, it's subservient?


What you're saying now:

The UES women are supposedly "free", but they're not, they are just as oppressed as Saudi women.


And you continue to compare where there is no comparison. Using a poorly written and researched article about a significantly small group of neighborhood women against the plight of women in an entire country.

[Anonymous]

Did you read the NYT article about the SAHM "bonuses?" It may all turn out to be complete bs. Read the comments. No one, including myself, who is a former UES resident (although one without that level of wealth), had ever heard of such bonuses. It is suspected that the NYT reporter overheard a comment, failed to interview anyone who might actually have ever have received such a bonus, and ran a story proclaiming it as truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.

Jeff is very free with telling the forum the general locations of people who he disagrees with. I am curious as to whether Muslima lives in the DC area, or even in the USA. I highly doubt it. I've asked her and she's very cagey about her answers.

I think Muslima is Jeff.

No one can have a grandfather with 4 wives and claim that Saudi Arabia is good for women.

It is a way of boosting eyeballs by posting these ridiculous posts and everyone responds.

[Anonymous]

I lost brain cells reading this and I am now convinced Muslima is a troll. Bored neckbeard off of reddit.

[Anonymous]

I had a boyfriend from Saudi Arabia in my early 20s, we met at University. I was very fair, blond, Russian blue eyed girl and he was gorgeous with brown eyes and olive skin - the chemistry was out of this world and we had a great time together. He did tell me right away that if we were in Saudi Arabia, there is NO way he could be seen with me out in public or God forbid be married to me because I am not muslim and not from his country. He also told me many a tale about the lives of Saudi women - awful. They are not allowed to talk to people on the street if someone asks them for directions even. I think comparing their lifestyle to the lifestyle of western women is simply rediculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sigh...I know you created this to be controversial and all of that. You're very tiresome and annoying.

Par for the course, for her.
Yawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh...I know you created this to be controversial and all of that. You're very tiresome and annoying.

Par for the course, for her.
Yawn.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I lost brain cells reading this and I am now convinced Muslima is a troll. Bored neckbeard off of reddit.

This would be funny if true. Sadly, however, I suspect it is merely the sort of willful stupidity that religion is so adept at producing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the big thing you're missing here is choice. These women CHOOSE this lifestyle.

Some Saudi women also chose that lifestyle...

NP here. No, they aren't choosing anything so much as accepting a choice that has been made for them by men.

This I know you will tell us all we are wrong because no one can disagree with you. 8 can choose to be whatever kind of women I want to be. Sure some people will look down on me (mostly other moms) but I can be a WOHM who barely sees my kid, can be a SAHM who stifles my kids, or can be a SAHM who spends all her husband's money and leaves the kids to the nannies. Sure, some may roll their eyes and some may look down on me. But that's about it. Saudi women have that same lifestyle choice? I think not.

Why do you think not? There are Saudi working mothers and SAH moms and others who spend their husband's money and leave the kids to the nanny. What makes you think these Saudi women don't exist?

First NP here. Now you're just shit-stirring. I really cannot believe you're this stupid.

Jeff is very free with telling the forum the general locations of people who he disagrees with. I am curious as to whether Muslima lives in the DC area, or even in the USA. I highly doubt it. I've asked her and she's very cagey about her answers.

I think Muslima is Jeff.

No one can have a grandfather with 4 wives and claim that Saudi Arabia is good for women.

It is a way of boosting eyeballs by posting these ridiculous posts and everyone responds.

I'm actually convinced that Muslima is more than one person. There is huge disparity at times in writing style.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Saudi women living in the U.S. are free to be as different as they wish and to practice their religion to the degree they with (within the common law of the people in the U.S.).

Before there was a U.S., religious pilgrims came here fleeing oppression in Europe; we celebrate them yearly at Thanksgiving.

Be as modest as you want and pray as often as you like. We encourage it in fact. Diversity is our strength.

But we also value tolerance. We don't believe that prohibiting women from driving is tolerant. We don't believe in having Saudi-style religious police to enforce sharia. We tolerate people of all faiths, and people of no faith. And we tolerate freedom of expression - even offensive speech like burning our flag or burning a Koran. It is protected speech.

I'm not convinced you've managed to reconcile the freedoms we give you with the tolerance we require as Americans.

+1

And I'm a Muslim-American from a very modern Muslim-American family. I have no idea what the purpose of OP's thread is. Comparing Saudi women's circumstances with the circumstances of American women is a ridiculous equivalence. OP, you know that a lot of Middle-Eastern countries think the Saudis are batshit crazy, don't you?

+1

Thank you. Well said.

[Anonymous]

Pretty easy intelligence test just to see who accepted the NYT article with no skepticism and who has an eye for spotting bullshit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I lost brain cells reading this and I am now convinced Muslima is a troll. Bored neckbeard off of reddit.

This would be funny if true. Sadly, however, I suspect it is merely the sort of willful stupidity that religion is so adept at producing.

Yes, if only it was true. Here is a fine example of the 'freedom' of highest status women in Saudi Arabia

http://www.aquila-style.com/focus-points/saudi-princess-sahar-house-arrest-starved/65513/

[Anonymous]

Wife bonus? That's crazy to me since we've always shared finances the entire 20-years we've been together.