White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

+1. One story is the Karen originated on Reddit. She was the ex-wife of some guy.

[Anonymous]

You can't "reclaim" power you never had. White MEN have the market on beauty and makeup.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

+1. One story is the Karen originated on Reddit. She was the ex-wife of some guy.

Karen originated with Black women looking for a term for white women who use race to harm Black people. Then 4chan/8chan/Reddit misogynists found the term and started gleefully using it to berate and degrade any and all women, but particularly middle-aged white women with opinions. In a predictable and yet horrifying racist twist the misogynists who have co-opted the term Karen now also use it against Black middle-aged women who speak their minds so now there are Black women who speak up getting labeled Karens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

+1. One story is the Karen originated on Reddit. She was the ex-wife of some guy.

Karen originated with Black women looking for a term for white women who use race to harm Black people. Then 4chan/8chan/Reddit misogynists found the term and started gleefully using it to berate and degrade any and all women, but particularly middle-aged white women with opinions. In a predictable and yet horrifying racist twist the misogynists who have co-opted the term Karen now also use it against Black middle-aged women who speak their minds so now there are Black women who speak up getting labeled Karens.

Wasn’t the original term for white women who harm black women “Becky,” in the days of Baby Got Back. Black women got Karen from Reddit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

Reddit contains multitudes. You can't pigeonhole it as any one thing let alone throw out a blanket statement that "Reddit" is devoted to protecting male power. The TwoXChromosomes subreddit is (or at least was) a default that all new users were subscribed to. You can argue that that subreddit is not representative of the site as a whole, but the fact that it has a significant presence is sharply at odds with the notion that the site is "devoted to protecting male power."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can't "reclaim" power you never had. White MEN have the market on beauty and makeup.

Only a few of them. So even talking about white men is unproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

Reddit contains multitudes. You can't pigeonhole it as any one thing let alone throw out a blanket statement that "Reddit" is devoted to protecting male power. The TwoXChromosomes subreddit is (or at least was) a default that all new users were subscribed to. You can argue that that subreddit is not representative of the site as a whole, but the fact that it has a significant presence is sharply at odds with the notion that the site is "devoted to protecting male power."

Try going onto TwoXChromosomes and saying that you believe that convicted rapists with penises who have self-ID’d as women should not be housed in women’s prisons to protect the safety of women prisoners and see how far you get.

Do you truly think the people who created the upskirt subreddit just meekly went away?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been a relief to me to read this thread. For various reasons, I have spent the past 3ish years inundated by the ideas in this interview. I went from being a progressive liberal to literally just giving up and registering as Republican because it seemed like liberals were suddenly racial segregationists, and I didn't want to be involved in a movement that viewed people primarily as demographic categories. The fact that reasonable liberal women are weighing in to correctly call out this BS is very heartening to me. And I'm surprised that this article generated do much discussion here bc I have literally been inundated with this kind of crap for years, so I may need to figure out where the normal liberals are.

It is very hard for me to believe anyone who truly believed in liberal causes, such as protecting the rights of all Americans and trying to right the wrongs against marginalized groups (from women to POC to LGBTQ+ etc) would think registering as a Republican in today's climate was a good option. Any group that is so obviously anti-women, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ, against telling the truth about our nations history in schools, anti-environment, etc. and pro-conspiracy theories, pro-election denying, refusing to acknowledge the reality of Jan 6...just NO! They want to dismantle our democracy to hold on to power.

I am one of the posters who is sad about the anti-white-women sentiments that seem to be so ubiquitous and (unfortunately) tolerated right now, but I think this is a symptom of how, frankly, unsophisticated humans can be in their thinking. It's like we can never have the pendulum in the middle; we overreact to things that are wrong by going overboard in the other direction. We have to work together to right the ship, not go over to the group that wants to take away rights from women and other marginalized groups and defend only the wealthy and powerful.

Funny how you preach "working together" but what you really mean is, working with those who share your exact opinion with zero deviation from that opinion. It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you talk about the rights of all Americans while spewing such venom about the political party you oppose. How very virtuous to be so arrogant in your own opinion that everyone who questions it or doesn't share it gets a label. The poster that you responded to has some valid points, but you'll never hear them because you're so busy repeating your talking points. You don't have to open your mind to what the right espouses, but FFS, at least listen to another liberal and consider they might have some valid points.

Oh I absolutely mean pro-democracy people working together against the anti-democracy members of the GOP. I'm not quibbling about it and I will not apologize. The opinions across the Democratic party *are* quite varied, because it is a large umbrella. Not so much across the lock-step GOP. There are a few Republicans out there willing to speak out against their parties awful policies, but unfortunately they are few. Please detail for me the policies of the Republican party that pro-women's rights, pro-LGBTQ rights, anti-racist, and are about rights of all Americans. You can't. Everything I stated about the policies, propaganda and rhetoric of Republicans is true.

You're attempt to parrot the GOP cry of "you must tolerate my intolerance" is ridiculous and tired.

Yeah, you’re just proving my point with your follow up rant. You must feel so virtuous, ridding the world of evil and all that…

You have no point.

Not that you’d see it, what with all your blathering on and on. .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

I’m the PP who said white womens should show solidarity with each other. I think it’s interesting that this has been described by you and others in an exclusionary way. I didn’t say I think white women should support each other AGAINST people of color, or to the exclusion of others. In fact, the history of women’s solidarity movements have often existed to help and protect others, like children, people living in poverty, etc.

What I’m saying is that white women need to stop playing a game invented by and for the benefit of the patriarchy, in which they attack, undermine, and exclude each other in order to prove their superiority and worthiness of being chosen by men and people in power. White women do this constantly— look at many threads on this site for evidence. There is a thread right now about a mom asking for insight on how to ask her employer for done unpaid leave to extend her post-partum leave, and there are posters in there telling her (knowing next to nothing about why she wants additional leave) that she should suck it up and quit or go back to work, or that they didn’t take extra leave do she shouldn’t either. So many women who are in a contest to prove they can “do it all” without complaint OR assistance, and that if they can do, any woman who can’t is a failure.

Compare this to how women of color support each other in similar situations. WOC figured it out a long time ago that the offer to select WOC for power and access, at the expense of their sisters, was poison. And that’s why progressive movements in the black, POC, Native communities seek to lift EVERYONE, and are based on shared empathy and solidarity.

White women could learn a lot from this. But have you spent time in groups of progressive whites women? It’s like a circular firing squad.

So yes, I think white women need to learn to support and stand in solidarity with each other. It would be an act of self-love, on many levels. And yes, also stand in solidarity with WOC and POC. But charity, as they say, begins at home. While women need to start caring for each other, lifting one another up, listening to each other, empathizing, helping each other. That means not tossing the entire group of “white women in the middle of the county”, or “Karens” under the bus, but instead listening and talking and finding common ground and looking for issues (like abortion, childcare, education, equal pay) on which we can find common cause.

I wasn’t suggesting a female Kkk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

+1. One story is the Karen originated on Reddit. She was the ex-wife of some guy.

Karen originated with Black women looking for a term for white women who use race to harm Black people. Then 4chan/8chan/Reddit misogynists found the term and started gleefully using it to berate and degrade any and all women, but particularly middle-aged white women with opinions. In a predictable and yet horrifying racist twist the misogynists who have co-opted the term Karen now also use it against Black middle-aged women who speak their minds so now there are Black women who speak up getting labeled Karens.

That claim doesn't predate the Dane Cook comedy sketch where he talks about Karen back in 2007.

https://unitedsquid.com/the-karen-meme-has-lost-all-meaning-due-to-misuse/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

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Anonymous wrote:Iliza Schlesinger has a great bit on "Karen" as an epithet.


https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en

That was great, thanks! “And that is what I realized in that moment is that, whatever Karen once was, it has devolved into something different. And if that’s what a Karen is, someone who’s a little too loud for your comfort, I will be a Karen….”

So, instead of criticizing that white woman who you think is acting entitled, you should sit with your discomfort and try to understand why you feel that way.

Thanks, Incel. You’re right, the choice is clear: white women should shut up 100% of the time or deal with being called Karen. No middle ground. Also, POC have no agency to push back. Did you learn all this on Reddit?

What I learned from discussions about race and gender between 2017 and 2020 is that social media is no place for nuance.

It is true that Reddit in particular is absolutely devoted to protecting male power. They will allow the most vile misogyny and remove women who object. Get in line, women, and shut up.

Nonsense.

I’ve been on Reddit since the very beginning. It is absolutely a hive of misogyny and sexism. I don’t participate any more (like a lot of women Redditors I know who left) because women are second-class citizens there. The site is one of the most women-hating spots on the internet.

Reddit contains multitudes. You can't pigeonhole it as any one thing let alone throw out a blanket statement that "Reddit" is devoted to protecting male power. The TwoXChromosomes subreddit is (or at least was) a default that all new users were subscribed to. You can argue that that subreddit is not representative of the site as a whole, but the fact that it has a significant presence is sharply at odds with the notion that the site is "devoted to protecting male power."

Try going onto TwoXChromosomes and saying that you believe that convicted rapists with penises who have self-ID’d as women should not be housed in women’s prisons to protect the safety of women prisoners and see how far you get.

Do you truly think the people who created the upskirt subreddit just meekly went away?

Yeah try to figure out how many people on TwoXChromosomes now even have, well, XX chromosomes, lol.

I don’t think Reddit now, as a whole, is as openly misogynistic as it was during its heyday, but it’s not great either.

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Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

I’m the PP who said white womens should show solidarity with each other. I think it’s interesting that this has been described by you and others in an exclusionary way. I didn’t say I think white women should support each other AGAINST people of color, or to the exclusion of others. In fact, the history of women’s solidarity movements have often existed to help and protect others, like children, people living in poverty, etc.

What I’m saying is that white women need to stop playing a game invented by and for the benefit of the patriarchy, in which they attack, undermine, and exclude each other in order to prove their superiority and worthiness of being chosen by men and people in power. White women do this constantly— look at many threads on this site for evidence. There is a thread right now about a mom asking for insight on how to ask her employer for done unpaid leave to extend her post-partum leave, and there are posters in there telling her (knowing next to nothing about why she wants additional leave) that she should suck it up and quit or go back to work, or that they didn’t take extra leave do she shouldn’t either. So many women who are in a contest to prove they can “do it all” without complaint OR assistance, and that if they can do, any woman who can’t is a failure.

Compare this to how women of color support each other in similar situations. WOC figured it out a long time ago that the offer to select WOC for power and access, at the expense of their sisters, was poison. And that’s why progressive movements in the black, POC, Native communities seek to lift EVERYONE, and are based on shared empathy and solidarity.

White women could learn a lot from this. But have you spent time in groups of progressive whites women? It’s like a circular firing squad.

So yes, I think white women need to learn to support and stand in solidarity with each other. It would be an act of self-love, on many levels. And yes, also stand in solidarity with WOC and POC. But charity, as they say, begins at home. While women need to start caring for each other, lifting one another up, listening to each other, empathizing, helping each other. That means not tossing the entire group of “white women in the middle of the county”, or “Karens” under the bus, but instead listening and talking and finding common ground and looking for issues (like abortion, childcare, education, equal pay) on which we can find common cause.

I wasn’t suggesting a female Kkk.

Then why do you keep emphasizing what white women should do in groups of other white women? I do not consider a group of white women my "home."